Please Read the Comment Rules Before Posting
Don’t be like Wi-I mean “Punk” in the comments for this post:
‘Transwomen’ are usually white and male. It is wholly offensive of any white male person to lump his self in with black women and prostituted women, and to appropriate the language of civil rights – ‘marginalized’ – in order to increase the sexual excitement he derives from inhabiting those identities. But then, neither black women, prostituted women or prostituted black women would expect white males to understand this.
Punk is clearly ignorant of the fact that many trans women are women of color. Many trans women work as prostitutes because they’re unable to find other work (and if you follow the link, you can see these women are murdered rather frequently, and are often women of color). Punk clearly thinks that he or she knows trans women’s minds better than we do, because she defines our identities in terms of the sexual excitement we allegedly derive from “inhabiting those identities.” Because lord knows, when those with privilege set out to understand those without privilege, they always start by defining our realities and lives for us, in ways that demean us and absolve them of any responsibility for treating us like human beings.
This is classic silencing, “put you in your place” language. Punk wants me to understand I’m not fully human, and thus not fully deserving of civil rights.
Punk, I won’t approve your comments as long as you can’t follow these very simple guidelines. This space is not for you to spread your transphobic hate speech. Use your own blog. Troll elsewhere.
Edit to add: Ren has a more in-depth takedown here.
Fantastic post, Lisa.
You have such a knack for taking something that I’d wind up thinking “Que? Where in blazes did *that* come from?” and coming up with a proper takedown of it.
Rebecca
April 19, 2008 at 1:48 am
I liked the idea that trans women have no right to be oppressed even as we have trouble getting jobs, housing, often turn to prostitution, and are often murdered for being trans. That’s it appropriating racial oppression to use the language of civil rights to say “We have the right to not get fired, to find housing, to not be murdered for who we are.” And that it’s appropriating to say “the stuff that happens to that group of people (which includes some of us) also happens to this group of people (which also includes some of them).” Punk’s comment is proof that she’s talking out her bum.
It was so stupid on so many levels I had to post it. Almost Lucky-level obtuseness.
Lisa Harney
April 19, 2008 at 1:55 am
my first reaction was to laugh.
then i felt slightly horrified.
then it was okay, because i laughed again.
Alma Cork
April 19, 2008 at 3:37 am
Yeah, it’s pretty easy to say stupid things when you think it won’t reflect on your “real” persona. It’s kind of like this.
Lisa Harney
April 19, 2008 at 3:42 am
Wow.
One thing I really notice here is the mention of sex and fetishism. I know that this idea probably comes from Bailey and his autogynephilia concept, so there’s some precedent for this particular flavor of ignorance.
But even considering that, it just makes me think of how often part of social domination involves sexualizing the group you dominate. One facet of demeaning women historically has been to claim that women are sexually voracious and need to be strictly controlled. In terms of race, there are the various ways women of color are assumed to be sexually voracious: black women as eager jungle queens, “spicy” Latinas, etc. One major way to demean someone else is to call them some kind of pervert, whether that be someone with an immoderate sexual appetite or someone with particular sick sexual tastes.
The idea that trans women’s lives and identities are merely some sort of disrespectful sexual game is just another iteration of the same old bull.
Trin
April 19, 2008 at 7:50 am
Edit to link back to a new post from Ren.
And thanks for laying that out, Trin – I didn’t think of it in those terms, but you’re absolutely correct. Punk is definitely adept with the master’s tools.
Lisa Harney
April 19, 2008 at 8:46 am
Thanks Lisa. :) And yeah, definitely. What a nasty thing to say here. Couldn’t she have just made the usual “ZOMG TRANZ WOMINZ ARE BOYZ N HAVE COOTIES I’M BUILDIN A TREEHOUSE NO
BOYZNON-”WBW” ALOWD!” comments at her own blog?Trin
April 19, 2008 at 9:41 am
Maybe she felt she’d already saturated that topic a few weeks ago, in all that self-indulgent nonsense about how “cisgender means she’s not a woman.”
There’s a lot of “true colors” in that discussion, too. Not that they haven’t been shown before, but you know, just in case people forget or let it slide.
Lisa Harney
April 19, 2008 at 9:51 am
And to be honest, if this troll wasn’t a flagrantly obvious sockpuppet, I wouldn’t have said anything. Lucky’s trolling barely gets mention around here, for example.
Lisa Harney
April 19, 2008 at 9:53 am
-ohhh-
if that IS witchy then that is–you know, amazing, I honestly didn’t think my opinion of her could have gotten any lower. and I keep saying that, and it keeps happening. it is a gift, of sorts.
and yeah, go tell transgriot or Little Light about how transwomen are white and -male- and have male pronouns. or, you know, any of the murder victims that somehow these great destroyers of the Patriarchy conveniently forget to mention.
belledame222
April 19, 2008 at 11:02 am
oh yeah and of course, meanwhile, trans women can’t work at women’s shelters, and we have to be absolutely clear that they can pass or else they can’t -stay- at women’s shelters -either,- I mean it might frighten the -real- women and hey, they’re really men, Not Our Problem Dear.
also, strippers can’t volunteer for us either. presumably they can stay there if they’re properly humble about it.
seriously, is this just, like, a convent, or what? Maud help me if I ever found myself having to rely on the tender mercies of the likes of witchy. fortunately, I know that there are better human beings out there, and better organizations, too. I’m just sorry for the people who go to her because they think there’s nowhere else.
belledame222
April 19, 2008 at 11:05 am
Aaargh. I am so sick of the bigots who hide behind the internet to propagate their stupid. I’m organzing a Day of Silence event at my school, so I posted a facebook event page to promote it. Within 24 hours of the page going up, there were several trolling comments of “Lawrence King must have done something to piss that boy off”, “Gays create most of their own problems by being too open”, and “You wouldn’t be hated if you didn’t confirm the stereotype of gay men being feminine and lesbians being masculine”. I’m femme, by the way, but comments like that are still freaking absurd. And there is nothing wrong with being gender-nonconforming.
Sorry to go off track a bit here. Just letting you know I share in your frustration with the phobes.
missnomered
April 19, 2008 at 12:28 pm
I just LOVE how she assumes what’s offensive to women of color. As a matter of fact, I’d rather be lumped in with transgendered people and not those who think that they have the authority to speak for me. I wonder if those bigots like Witchy Woo have ever heard this saying:
“While there is a lower class, I am in it;
while there is a criminal element, I am of it;
and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.”
bint alshamsa
April 19, 2008 at 1:38 pm
But you see, if you’re not willing to subsume yourself to the painfully blinkered notion she and hers have of Class Woman, the Eternally Oppressed, then you Just Don’t Get It.
belledame222
April 19, 2008 at 2:08 pm
btw, in case I forgot to mention:
-fuck you-, witchy or whoever you are (fuck you witchy anyway, really, it kind of goes without saying at this point), you racist, homophobic piece of shit. yeah, I said it.
belledame222
April 19, 2008 at 2:48 pm
btw, guyz, I just linked back to this post (doesn’t do trackbacks), and you may be interested in this convo anyway:
http://fetchmemyaxe.blogspot.com/2008/04/passing-some-privilege.html
belledame222
April 19, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Bint, yeah. It’s like when someone (at Witchy’s, I think) asked me how I could call myself a woman without asking her first – and I pointed out that not all women feel as she does, and my identity is not subject to a vote anyway – and the thread degenerated into talk about “camp queens” and how no trans woman really passes, people are just polite around us because the threat of being called “transphobic” is so powerful.
They want to define and limit women’s responses to anything or anyone they don’t like – so they don’t like the fact that trans women experience oppression much like racial oppression (and they especially don’t like how “WBW-only” compares to discrimination), because trans women were born male and thus have male privilege forever and always, without complication, and the patriarchy loves us – because lord knows, actually understanding people or their lives is too haaaaard, it’s easier to take out their hatred of men on people who have less social power than they do.
They don’t want trans women to have allies anywhere, so they come up with this crap about women of color hating trans women (despite how much outreach has been done) and not wanting our experiences to be anything like theirs, even as she uses classic arguments against trans people that racists have used against black people and even arguments that men use against women.
So I assume they’re not interested in true equality, they’re interested in boosting their own privilege so they can continue to oppress others.
Lisa Harney
April 19, 2008 at 5:21 pm
I’m amused the by accusations that transness is merely a fetish. I mean, I suppose in the clinical sense it qualifies as a fetish. It’s not like I can really have satisfying sex while occurantly cognizant of the fact that my body is male… But the fact that my gender identity extends to basically every aspect of of my life*, actually making death preferable to continued life as a man, would seem to indicate that it’s a bit more than a fetish. I mean, rubber mask fetishists don’t generally run to their shrinks yelling, OH MY GAWD HELP ME STAPLE THIS MASK TO MY FACE OR I’LL TOTALLY DO IT MYSELF!
*Sex, in particular, is NOT that important. Wrestling with the constant presumed inclusion in the “boy’s club”, the limits on friendships with women, and yes, even the fucking fashion options rate higher on the scale than fucking (which isn’t something I’ve ever spent a huge amount of time doing, anyway.)
Claire
April 19, 2008 at 7:55 pm
I think we should ALL get permission from whosits every time we call ourselves female, or use the female pronoun to describe ourselves, or go to the womens’ toilet. like, EVERY time. “Excuse me…?”
not that i would ever suggest such a thing, but if such a thing were ever again to be suggested by someone who could be contacted by email, say…
belledame222
April 19, 2008 at 7:59 pm
belledame222,
It’s a hard way to go. In the interest of sex equality, I tried confirming my restroom choices with strangers for one day… well, for about 15 minutes. The woman I asked called me a pervert, so I decided to try for the men’s room, and that guy beat the shit out of me. I awoke 5 days later in a hospital bed, 8000 dollars poorer and one ass-beating wiser.
Claire
April 19, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Claire, fuck, I’m sorry, didn’t mean to be flip.
belledame222
April 19, 2008 at 8:47 pm
belledame222,
Sorry, I didn’t mean to give the impression that I was offended. I love your sense of humor. I was just taking it a step further. <3 u. :’P
Claire
April 19, 2008 at 9:14 pm
How DARE you, Lisa! This is a PROFESSIONAL we’re talking about here!!! She’s ABOVE the mud-slinging!
She just trolls other people’s blogs because, um, it’s OK for someone like her to do it. Somehow.
Natalia Antonova
April 19, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Anonymously trolls. For that implausible deniability.
Lisa Harney
April 19, 2008 at 11:14 pm
IP’s don’t lie…
Natalia Antonova
April 20, 2008 at 4:31 am
… Don’t they?
Natalia Antonova
April 20, 2008 at 4:32 am
Every time people try to convince me that racism in GLBT and feminist circles doesn’t exist , I can almost guarantee tat withing 24-48 hours of the initial comment somebody somewhere is going to post something that shows just how clueless they are about what W.E.B Du Bois called, ‘The Problem of the Color Line.’
This person ‘Punk’ also showed their breathtaking ignorance about transpeople coming in flavors other than vanilla as well.
Monica Roberts
April 20, 2008 at 4:55 am
Monica, thank you – I didn’t know that quote, and it points to a lot of material, including Dubois’ book, The Souls of Black Folk, available online at that link.
And yeah, she completely erases large swaths of trans people simply for the sake of taking a swipe at me. And that’s pretty offensive – I don’t want to be centered like that, on the lives and bodies of other people. :(
Anyway, Punk:
I’m not going to approve your comments as long as you cannot follow simple directions. Your new comment is nothing more than a reiteration of what I addressed in the post here. If you have nothing new to add, go away. I will not give you a voice. You have your own blog, use it.
Or are you unwilling to attach your “known” internet handle to this tripe?
Lisa Harney
April 20, 2008 at 6:54 am
Hopefully, “Punk” and people like her are dinosaurs, doomed to extinction. Hopefully, the human race will grow to expanding its collective mind and perhaps accepting that there are infinite things we do not yet know about the human brain, or science in general, so it is still wrong of us (especially those of us who haven’t actually studied it in great detail) to say “this is it” when tomorrow, the truth might be a million different things. Once upon a time, the earth was flat and all the elements there were were earth, fire, water and air.
Also, I am cisgendered and a woman. The only problem I have with that term is that I’m not sure if it’s pronounced with a hard or soft C. And I’d like to be considered an ally in kindness, because the world needs more kindness :)
Celia
April 20, 2008 at 7:03 am
Celia, I assume it’s “sis” similar to how “cislunar” is pronounced.
This is because English beats the living daylights out of Latin when it absorbs Latin words.
I guess I didn’t explicitly address this one:
The only reason this wasn’t the stupidest comment I read yesterday was because I also saw someone elsewhere claim that racism would go away if only people of color stopped getting offended about it. It’s in the realm of “I don’t know anything about trans people, so I’ll let my brain run free and unfettered by the limits of intelligence or critical thinking, and make nonsense up to justify my senseless hate.”
Lisa Harney
April 20, 2008 at 7:10 am
Putting aside the false factual predicates & the hateful attribution of motives, Punk’s argument is a perfect reductio ad absurdum of a whole line of thought.
Perhaps she isn’t old enough to remember, or is too old to remember, the origins of the social movements she does approve of. When the feminist movement of the 1960s emerged, it drew historically & ideologically on the black civil rights movement. And there were people, some of them she’d recognize, who found it wholly offensive for women – including women who’d devoted themselves to the black civil rights movement – to “lump themselves with,” or “appropriate the language of,” black people. It wasn’t a marginal argument; it seems remote & indefensible now, but a lot of energy was wasted on it.
And when the gay liberation movement emerged, it similarly drew on the experience of both the black civil rights movement & the feminist movement. And again there were people, some of them still prominent, who found it wholly offensive for a bunch of lesbians & gay men (whose motives were also invidiously sexualized, as those of the black civil rights & feminist movements had been) – some of whom had played roles in both the black civil rights movement & the feminist movement – to “lump themselves with” & “appropriate the language of” these other movements.
And now we have the same sorry thing all over again, dressed up in the same specious language of moral indignation. Transgendered people, many of them veterans of the civil rights, feminist & gay rights movements, are being instructed by some anonymous person – who presumes to speak for all prostitutes & all black women – that they have no right now to raise their voice on their own behalf. As if the idea of civil equality were the exclusive property of any identity category
Punk, whoever she is & whatever her various identity categories, has no standing to speak for all black women or all prostitutes, much less to adjudicate who has the right to demand equal rights.
KH
April 20, 2008 at 8:59 am
oh yeah, witchy was also the one who said that calling her “cis” against her wishes was akin to using the term “colored” against someone’s who did not wish to be called that wishes.
I’m just wondering: is this…person…actually trying for some kind of Darwin award? most hateful fuck of the decade? because it seems to me that -this- level of clueless ass-showing has got to be on purpose. I mean, it takes -effort.-
belledame222
April 20, 2008 at 9:21 am
My favorite part – But then, neither black women, prostituted women or prostituted black women would expect white males to understand this. – is the division between “women” and “black women”. Wow. Way to set whiteness as the default for womanhood AND erase all WoC who are not black. I didn’t know there was a two-for-one sale on ignorant asshattery this week!
LindenTea
April 20, 2008 at 9:30 am
So, if trans*women are really males who get off on being seen as women…why do we trans*men transition?
I mean, I know I am only comfortable having sex with someone who sees me as a man. Dearest Witch–I mean Punk, does that mean I too have a fetish?
Or is it instead that I am only comfortable having sex with someone who sees me for who I am regardless of what parts the factory sent me out with.
And actually, some trans*women are not male; some are intersexed, but were raised/assigned male.
Drakyn
April 20, 2008 at 10:04 am
Hi. Brown trans woman right here.
Bring it. Because I’m not backing off from my sisters, and I’m not going to get condescended to as “one of the good ones,” and I haven’t had any “sexual excitement” since September besides.
Keep kicking, keep lying about us, keep on hating.
It’s not our job to swallow it for you. And it’s not our job to accept that we’re unacceptable. You want to shame us, do some homework and do it competently, you childish bigot.
little light
April 20, 2008 at 1:05 pm
You know, I wonder if it has ever occurred to Witchy/Punk that maybe the reason why she thinks most transgendered women are white is because she centers her whiteness so much that she simply can’t see the full diversity that exists. I mean, whites make up what percentage of the world’s population? Twenty percent would probably be a very, very generous estimate. Now, seeing as whites are such a minority, is it even probable that the majority of transgendered women are white? I mean, transgendered people have existed all around the world since before “white” even became a category that people used to describe the group they felt they belonged to.
Maybe if Witchy/Punk actually started listening to and paying attention to what the majority of women (i.e. women of color) experience, then she might be able to begin making logical conclusions. At the present time, all her comments show is just how unbelievably clueless she is with regards to…well, pretty much everything.
bint alshamsa
April 20, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Maybe she thinks that stating solidarity with women of color is the same as saying I’m just like women of color because that’s how she approaches solidarity? Because she sure seems to think she’s entitled to speak up for all women when she voices her rejection of trans women as human beings.
Lisa Harney
April 20, 2008 at 3:50 pm
“my identity is not subject to a vote”
If I still had my blog, Lisa, I’d put this quote of yours up in GIANT PINK TEXT.
Love that.
Sorry you’re going thru this bullshit.
I think certain people are entirely devoid of heart, minds and souls.
(Bastante) Kim
April 21, 2008 at 2:58 am
Little Light, Bint – I think the reason this person might have not seen examples of many non-white transpeople is that non-white people (of all sorts) make up about five per cent of the UK’s population, and we know “Punk” is from the UK. In other words, what Bint said, but the culture and society is giving her a hand there.
As I said in Ren’s journal, I am somewhat embarrassed to be sharing a land-mass with this person. But, we learn from examples, and I can be sure to try to be a good one with “Punk” showing me how not to behave.
Celia
April 21, 2008 at 7:37 am
“belledame222,
It’s a hard way to go. In the interest of sex equality, I tried confirming my restroom choices with strangers for one day… well, for about 15 minutes. The woman I asked called me a pervert, so I decided to try for the men’s room, and that guy beat the shit out of me. I awoke 5 days later in a hospital bed, 8000 dollars poorer and one ass-beating wiser.”
I tried confirming bathroom usage with my step-mother in August 2006, it had been 4 months full-time, but it was the second or third time she and my father saw me since then, and it was the first time my larger family saw me since then. She said it was fine to use the women’s room. I haven’t asked elsewhere. It seems most people would take the question as a ‘duh’ question and raise red flags for even being asked, and then all get on your case.
As long as I don’t get an issue for using the women’s room, I will use it. If I do get issues, I won’t return there. Even if it’s a job or school.
Schala
April 22, 2008 at 6:50 am
[...] I did wonder if there may be an inherent contradiction there, though: if you don’t define who is/is not a woman, then how can you say that a space is ‘women only’? But that may just be me being defensive: I’ve seen too many radical feminists, time and again, trying to take ownership of the concept by insisting that they and they alone will decide what defines ‘woman’. And, however they define ‘woman’, it’s no secret that they define trans* women as not-women. But I’m with Lisa on this: to steal a quote from her, “my identity is not subject to a vote“. [...]
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