Cissexual/Cisgender Privilege

Maia, a radical feminist blogger posted Transphobia and Radical Feminism - a challenge a couple of days ago, calling out radical feminists for transphobic policies and prejudices. Her post (and her preceding posts linked in that post) are worth reading.

 Predictably - as the comments demonstrate - several radical feminists came in to deny that they’re transphobic, to defend the site “Questioning Transgender,” to explain that cisgender privilege doesn’t exist.

 In true transphobic radical feminist form, Stormcloud defends a male commenter who implied that many trans women were rapists prior to transition and compared reading a response to his comment to being raped. Because, of course, a man who casually reduces rape to something that reading a negative post feels like is surely a good feminist ally, am I right? Well, he is so long as he denounces trans women - as Heart demonstrates, she’ll agree with anyone who says that, even if he’s a eugenicist who’s all for preventing homosexual births.

I mainly want to address the argument that cisgender privilege doesn’t exist. Specifically, Polly Styrene claims:

On the subject of “cisgender privilege” Cis gender is defined in Wikipedia as:

a type of gender identity formed by a match between an individual’s biological sex and the behaviour or role considered appropriate for one’s sex.

I don’t know any woman born woman who identifies 100% with and is happy with her gender role (ok I know a lot of feminists). But I personally certainly get loads of shit for not acting out the expected gender role of ‘woman’. So I don’t see what this cisgender privilege I’m meant to have is. If it’s not physically wanting to change the external appearance of my genitals, then I’m afraid that will have to be taken up with goddess, or whoever you believe gets to decide these things because it sure as hell wasn’t me.

‘Privilege’ is only relevant when it is one person who is part of a privileged group in society using that privilege to disadvantage another person. Which brings us to:

“Gatekeeper of the class of women”. The problem here is that if we say some transwomen are women because they’re living full time as women, or legally defined as women, or any other definition you care to mention, we are STILL DEFINING WHO IS AND IS NOT A WOMAN. You can’t get away from that. The only logical alternative position is to say anyone who self defines a woman is a woman. Otherwise we are still acting as ‘gatekeepers of the class of woman’. Which I don’t believe we do anyway, but anyone who wants to read my full opinion can go to

http://www.sizeofacow.wordpress.com

That’s it - I’m outta here.

The bolded part is the important part. Now, I’m fascinated that she, as a cissexual woman, is defining whether or not she experiences a privilege in the first place. After all, we know that we can trust men to acknowledge - or in many cases, even see - the privilege they experience for being male. And the same is true of white people and white privilege - no one ever denies their white privilege, right?

More to the point, just as women cannot trust men acknowledge their male privilege and how they experience it and use it, I as a trans woman cannot trust a cis woman to acknowledge her cis privilege and how she experiences and uses it. She also doesn’t acknowledge intersections of multiple forms of privilege or lack thereof - She lacks male privilege, and she uses this as an argument that she has no other privilege. Her demand to take it up with the goddess could just as easily be used against her by men in response to commentary about male privilege, because it’s much easier to lay the blame on someone for not having privilege than accept responsibility for having privilege.

Here’s a starting point for understanding cis privilege. Of course, to understand cis privilege, one must accept that it’s privilege that’s handed to you by society as well as presumed authority to treat the oppressed class in a demeaning way. It is true that men have privilege over women and it’s true that it’s largely privilege handed to men by society, as well as presumed authority to treat the oppressed class in a demeaning way. Polly Styrene tries to mislocate the privilege as being the fact that one is born in a body one is comfortable with vs. not being born in a body that one is comfortable with, rather than how society treats people who are comfortable with their sex vs. how it treats people who need to change their sex. She also tries to conflate it with sexism, in that she points out her experiences of sexism as a counterpoint to the idea that she has cis privilege. That has nothing to do with cis privilege - I don’t have cis privilege and I also experience sexism. Many trans women experience sexism due to being women.

She also tries to disclaim any responsibility for cis privilege (while denying it exists) by saying that it’s a matter of birth and beyond her control - but her being born female is also a matter of birth and beyond any man’s control.

The truth is, she experiences cis privilege. She lives it, breathes it, and assumes it. The fact that she’s willing to discuss at length whether trans women have a place around cis women without any input from trans women is a pretty privileged viewpoint. Is her cis privilege uncomplicated? No, she’s a butch lesbian - and having presented as even moderately butch (or maybe femme butch) I’ve caught criticism for wearing clothes that were seen as too masculine (jeans and a t-shirt).

This is the primary frustration when dealing with men who refuse to believe that male privilege exists (especially MRAs), white people who refuse to believe that white privilege exists, and able-bodied people who refuse to believe that able-bodied privilege exists. They refuse to meet you anywhere, they just define you as less than and subhuman in relation to them, and your truths as lies you use to get sympathy. Race cards, gender cards, and so on. It’s not ever surprising when I get this stuff from white men, who are just about as clueless as it gets when it comes to privilege, but it’s doubly frustrating when it comes from women, people of color, gay men and lesbians, all of whom have experienced prejudice and hypothetically know what it looks like to be on the receiving end, and yet are completely blind to it when they dish it out.

And Polly Styrene is completely blind to it when she dishes it out, at least the cis privilege kind. As a woman, as a lesbian, as a butch woman, she really should know that the arguments she’s using to deny her own privilege exactly mirror those used by straight people and men to deny that they’re being homophobic and sexist.

49 Responses to “Cissexual/Cisgender Privilege”

  1. belledame2222 Says:

    Thanks for writing out what I was much too tired to even try to say even before that comment thread was closed. But, yeah to all that.

    I’d love to do a detailed compare and contrast of some ex-gay websites and QT, p.s., dunno if you’re up for it, maybe a joint project?

    On the shallower end: how fucking perfect is it that a transphobic radical feminist has a pseud that would do any drag queen proud?

  2. Lisa Harney Says:

    I haven’t had a lot of energy for posting the kind of stuff I did in November, but possibly soon, yeah.

  3. gallinggalla Says:

    I read Maia’s post, and this concerned me:

    A lifestory that seems to me not uncommon - and I appreciate that this is in itself a stereotype - is the story of a person who has lived and survived well as a man until middle age, a person who may be married or even have children, who is typically white and middle class, typically well-educated and/or fairly successful in their chosen (traditional, male-dominated) occupation. In middle age the person begins to feel safe enough, or desperate enough, to come out and/or transition. These transwomen certainly do have a good chance of ending up with major entitlement complexes - but it is not because they were “raised as boys” - it is because they have lived the whole damn white supremacist hetero-patriarchal male wet dream.

    This sounds to me like the argument I’ve heard coming from many a radical feminist - “ok, I’ll acknowledge that those who transitioned young are really women, but I still won’t accept the ‘middle aged husbands’ invading our space.”

    That attitude burns my craw. Yes, I transitioned at the age of 45. But I also spent 7 years of my middle- and high-school life in a living hell of daily abuse, including physical, because of my gender variance and refusal to be a “boy”. Exactly how is that male privilege? Is Maia going to draw some kind of line - if you transitioned at 29, that’s ok, but at 31, well that’s too late?

  4. frances Says:

    Thanks Lisa, for both this post and the link to where it came from.

    I guess my main concern with Poly Styrene’s comment and the definition from Wiki is my understanding what she describes (in bold type) is gender expression rather than cissexuality, and a better choice of word might have been heteronormative, though that would seem to make the remainder of her argument.

    Without opening up Whipping Girl, I thought the definition was a match between physical sex or just the physical appearance of a body and unconscious psychological identity.

    It’s possible to have a non-normative gender expression (in her case butch dyke) and still be cissexual, but maybe this feminist tranny missed the point here?

  5. Lisa Harney Says:

    Yes, that is a sucky attitude - the idea that having waited until later until transitioning and giving up male privilege means that you benefited from it too much. It’d be like saying that people who become disabled late in life aren’t really disabled.

  6. drakyn Says:

    She’s also using wikipedia for her definitions for all her trans* stuff. Honestly, use it for a base understanding, but don’t build your whole point around it.

    Seriously, there are a ton of people that just use cisgender as “non-trans*”–no other meanings or connotations–and some of us use cissexual instead since it has nothing to do with sex/gender roles.
    It’s really obvious she doesn’t do decent research, even if it is ‘just a blog post’.

  7. Lisa Harney Says:

    frances,

    Yeah, I’ve found that transphobic radical feminists will contort words and meaning of words as much as possible to deny that transphobia exists, deny that they’re transphobic, and deny that cis privilege exists.

    On the MWMF forum, one woman was trying to tell me how she had it worse than a trans woman ever would, and asked “Have you ever been asked to leave a women’s restroom? I have!”

    And I was all, “Well, gee, no, but I almost went to school somewhere until they told me I had to use an offsite restroom a block away because one of the other students threatened them with a lawsuit if I used the women’s restroom in the school itself.”

    I don’t think many butch lesbians have actually been banned from using the appropriate restrooms entirely, but it happens to trans people off and on. But no matter what happens to a trans woman, cis women have it worse, per some radical feminists.

  8. Lisa Harney Says:

    Also, apologies for not approving your post sooner, Frances. I missed the notice in my mailbox.

  9. Lisa Harney Says:

    Just for the record, I won’t be approving any posts that disrespect trans identities by calling women “boys” or men “girls.”

    I should make up a list of basic rules for those who need to have basic decency pointed out to them.

  10. Daisy Says:

    Comments at Maia’s are closed, but wanted to echo that your writing over on that thread, as here, is simply awesome, Lisa.

  11. Trin Says:

    “This sounds to me like the argument I’ve heard coming from many a radical feminist - “ok, I’ll acknowledge that those who transitioned young are really women, but I still won’t accept the ‘middle aged husbands’ invading our space.””

    As I said over at Maia’s before the door closed, this really worries me too. Particularly since later transitioners can have a harder time passing. Is the fact that they seem more “privileged” really about advantages they’ve had in their lives, or just about the fact that the kind of women who would be frightened of them clock them more easily?

  12. Lisa Harney Says:

    Yeah, that would’ve been discussed if Rich hadn’t come around to declare that he was raped by a trans woman talking to him. :(

    I did note it when I read her post, but got distracted by the PURE HATE rolling off some of the commenters.

  13. hilzoy Says:

    Someone actually said there is no such thing as cisgender privilege? For real?

    *blinks*

    Wow. Just wow.

    Also, welcome back. ;)

  14. Lisa Harney Says:

    Yeah, but I see that kind of thing a lot - people who have a particular social privilege deny it exists, and try to explain away all the things that happen because of it or lack thereof as bad luck, or maybe you did something bad to deserve it. It’s really blatant when talking about white privilege and racism, but it comes up in relation to everything else, too.

    Some transphobic radical feminists believe that as women they’re automatically the most oppressed and therefore can’t possibly oppress anyone else, so their prejudice doesn’t count at all.

  15. Trin Says:

    “Yeah, but I see that kind of thing a lot - people who have a particular social privilege deny it exists, and try to explain away all the things that happen because of it or lack thereof as bad luck, or maybe you did something bad to deserve it. It’s really blatant when talking about white privilege and racism, but it comes up in relation to everything else, too.”

    It’s everywhere, really. People have an easy out with disability, too: “well, isn’t it just that your body/mind doesn’t work right?”

  16. Trin Says:

    Also, people like Rich totally fascinate me. “I’m 100% female identified, but I made a huge sacrifice by not transitioning!”

    Dude, maybe you should. Then you can be a whiny asshole woman with, just maybe, one less thing to fuss about.

  17. Renegade Evolution Says:

    Rich…oh my. He is special.

    And no such thing as cis privilege? On what planet?

  18. Lisa Harney Says:

    No such thing, or at least women don’t benefit from it because women are oppressedest. Like LuckyNkl says in racism discussions, it’s impossible for women to have any privilege.

    I could use that logic. For example, I could say that since I don’t have male privilege or hetero privilege, I can’t possibly have white privilege either…because privilege and lack of privilege never ever intersects.

    I guess that explains all the nonsense about Hillary vs. Obama and black women betraying Woman by supporting Obama.

  19. hilzoy Says:

    I suppose it’s just that I’m new to all this: feminist who stopped reading theory a while back, finding it remote from the people I met and the work that I thought needed to be done; cisgendered straight woman who had never thought much about transgender issues until one of my best friends came out to me. So the existence of this particular feud was just unknown.

    I can only assume that anyone who denies the reality of cisgender privilege has either never known a transman or -woman, or sees things so completely through the lens of some theory or other that actual human beings are invisible to her.

    One of the interesting things about talking things through with my friend was that while she had always been a basically fair-minded person, she had never really come to terms with, for instance, the reality of sexism until she acknowledged to herself that she was TG, and stopped thinking of herself as a straight white guy. She came to feel like a spy behind enemy lines when, for instance, guys were talking about women on the assumption that no women were present. She was horrified at herself for not having appreciated the force of sexism sooner, and hated herself whenever she didn’t speak up and try to stop it.

    I think she would have been the first to acknowledge that she had benefitted from privilege in the past, but the idea that that privilege would have survived her coming out is just flatly absurd to me.

  20. Maia Says:

    Hi everyone.

    I just wanted to try and clarify / defend (?) my comments about transwomen who come out “late” - I wanted to answer Trin’s comment in the thread but I too got worn down by the storm that was happening - which had the effect of shutting down the kind of conversation that might have been useful.

    Anyway, I wasn’t trying to suggest that there was any reason to not acknowledge transwomen who have lived as a man for many years before coming out, or to not accept them as women or include them in women’s spaces (I said a bit later on that “even the entitled ones” should be included, because - apart from anything else - I didn’t want to start some divisive conversation about picking and choosing *which* transwomen were acceptable entrants into women’s space and which were not).

    What I was trying to get at - and I may have been clumsy - was that there is this stereotype that some people (WBW radfems for the most part, plus Rich of course, whatever he is) have of the male-privileged transwoman, who grew up male and therefore has a load of privilege even after coming out that will then be brought unwelcomed into women’s safe spaces. I wanted to explore that a bit, to think about why some transwomen may act in ways that seem to be “male privileged”, acting in some of the same ways that men act, ways that smack of privilege. I wanted to say that, yes, we can acknowledge that there are *some* transwomen (probably most likely to be ones who lived as a man for a long time and who are white and well-off etc i.e. used to having lots of privilege) who are a-holes and who behave in an entitled way, outraged by their own loss of privilege but failing to see that there are other oppressions in town BUT that this isn’t a reason to exclude them from class Woman and it certainly isn’t a reason to act as though all transwomen behave in that way or have those attitudes.

    I apologise if I was clumsy or unclear. I also apologise if I appeared to be labouring the stereotype - I guess I just wanted to explore / understand how a transwoman might come to behave in “male entitled” ways so as a way to making visible the plain fact that this is the exception rather than (as some evidently believe) the rule.

    Finally, one point that I make in passing, tentatively, which you can feel free to ignore (as in, I’m not sure I get to be the one that decides how my privilege is named)… a lot of women really dislike being called “cissexual” or “cisgender”. Personally, I prefer “WBW” or “non-trans” if the purpose is to distinguish me from a transperson, and although I don’t get all stressed out about the “cis” label, I know some WBW do.

    Sometimes it has taken us a long time to even claim the name “woman” - we spend a lot of time being a “girl” even when adult, or a “lady” or anything but WOMAN (I was in my late twenties before I felt comfortable describing myself as a woman!) Often we are tired of men deciding what we are and what to call us (girl, lady, love, chick, bitch, totty, whatever). So when trans people start calling WBW “cis-”, a name we have not chosen for ourselves, it can get backs up. It reminds us of what men do. It sounds to us like a denial of the identity we have claimed so painfully.

    PS thanks to all the transwomen who came onto my thread and responded to the other commenters. The times I wanted to explain or respond to something and then saw that someone (usually someone trans) had already done it and saved me the energy were many. It made me feel less under siege. Thanks.

  21. Lisa Harney Says:

    Thank you for posting that, Maia.

    I honestly liked your post, and the bit about the older transitioner was the only thing I would’ve said anything about had I not had other commenters saying other things that seemed more urgent.

    On the cissexual/cisgender thing… It really shouldn’t be any different from heterosexual vs. homosexual. “Non-trans” centers those who aren’t trans as normal and those who are trans as not normal. I would probably use WBW if I also used WBT, as that describes the circumstances of birth, but I try to avoid using WBW because in most uses I talk about, it’s more about “trans exclusion.” That is, I’m talking about policies rather than people.

    But mainly, cis/trans decenters non-trans in a way that hetero should (but probably doesn’t) decenter straight people. I try not to use cisgender because a lot of people who have don’t really fit into “transgender” don’t precisely fit under “cisgender,” either, and I use “cissexual” to mean someone who has no desire to change his or her sex. Or I use “cis” as in “cis woman” vs. trans as in “trans woman” just to shorten it.

    To be honest, I’d rather not be called trans. It’s not really a name I chose for myself, but it’s one that I have had to deal with in order to live my life. I’d rather just talk about men and women and find a way to add context that makes it clear I mean someone who did transition or someone who did not.

    Cis isn’t something that will follow you everywhere, it’s not something that will appear on your record, or affect how your ID portrays you. It’s something that solely exists to differentiate, and thus really only comes up in conversations about trans.

    I also talk about cis men, if that helps. :) It’s not about labeling women, or men, really. It’s about having a way to say “this person is different from me or like me in this particular way” without also saying “I’m abnormal and they’re not.”

    I hope this makes sense. I do see your point about being labeled against your will - because, I get a lot of that, too, as a woman, as a lesbian, and as a trans person. I even get it mildly because I have red hair.

  22. Dw3t-Hthr Says:

    When I don’t interact on the internet with a gendered handle, I am frequently taken as “behaving in male entitled ways”. The fact that I’m a cis woman frequently comes as a tremendous shock to people who know me from elsenet (in the blog I talk much more about issues of being female than I do anywhere else). I have seen trans women told that they are “behaving in male entitled ways” when they are being more demure and polite than I would ever be in the same circumstances.

    But, as I’ve been known to comment, a radical faerie once told me I had amazing male energy. My cis-woman-ness is not enough to conceal my blatant male privilege, apparently.

    Calling me a “woman-born woman” is fighting words, honestly; “cissexed” is simply descriptive.

  23. GallingGalla Says:

    Maia, I kind of see what you’re getting at, but I do have a couple of questions / rejoinders:

    (1) I’ll agree that there are trans women who are assholes - I’ve had the displeasure of meeting them. But there are cis women who are assholes. And trans men. And cis men. And genderqueer people. Why are you singling out trans women who are assholes? What’s so special about trans women who are assholes? Are trans-women-assholes, as a class, worse assholes than, say, George Bush?

    (2) So when trans people start calling WBW “cis-”, a name we have not chosen for ourselves, it can get backs up.

    So when cis people start calling trans women “middle-age husbands” or “men who cut their dicks off”, (I know you have not said such things, but other cis people have) names that we have not chosen for ourselves, it can get our backs up.

    (3) The term WBW implies that trans women were men; do you think that I suddenly woke up one day, at the age of 45, and decide “I think I’ll be a woman today” (not that there’s anything wrong with that)? Or, perhaps, is it possible that I was born a girl, just in a body that somebody else decided to assign “male”, and it took me that long to come to terms with it? Essentially, “WBW” others trans women.

    (4) If a goal of radical feminism is to eliminate the concept of gender from society - and that is a goal that I actually agree with - why do some radical feminists expend so much energy in creating women-only space and rigidly defining who counts as a woman (again, not saying that you, Maia, do that)?

  24. A Dahl’s House » A rad-fem reconsiders (and unlearns) her transphobia Says:

    [...] shallow and facile analysis of gender binaries as the ones the author criticizes. [UPDATE: Maia has clarified some of the comments I was concerned about (see comment #20) and think they were more a case of not [...]

  25. belledame2222 Says:

    WBW always just seemed a bit silly because, well, de Beauvoir, you know, “one is not born a woman…” in several ways, that.

    sometimes I use non-trans, depending on who’s in the conversation, if for no other reason than it’s less likely to make people go “quoi?” it seems like a neutral enough term.

    I don’t have loads of sympathy for people like Heart objecting to “cis,” for the reasons Lisa mentioned. I do get it more when people like Q Grrl say it doesn’t feel applicable, because they understand “cis” to mean “gender-congruent with the sex one has been born with/assigned” and they don’t find that applicable to themselves at all. In cases like that, yeah, fair enough.

    But the people who go exaggerated over the top “how DARE you call me!…” often enough, they just remind me of the people who are terribly terribly offended at the appropriation of a perfectly good word “gay” to mean “deviant pervert.”

    or, as here, or rather the post below/above, the squawking about how TERRIBLE it is to be labeled “bigot” or “phobic.” sucks, that, I really feel for ‘em…

    or, well. yes, call yourself what you want to be called; but if the person in question is simultaneously refusing to even use the other person’s preferred pronouns, then I lose whatever sympathy I might have had.

  26. Luckynkl Says:

    Well no, there’s no such word as “cisgender.” There’s also no such thing as wbw, wbt, boi, transwoman, transman, and so on and so forth (altho Trans Am really is the name of a really cool car). Even the word “transsexual” is bogus. It implies one can change sex. Which is, of course, biologically impossible. Sex is static and cannot be changed. Unless I missed the part where the mtf trans can now pull babies out of their ass?

    In short, transpeak is no more a language than Pig Latin.

    As for women being offended by the word…. **shrug** Women get called every name in the book. Trans can just add their garbage to the shit-pile.

    Personally I think some people have waaay too much time on their hands to think all this stupid shit up. Oh well, you know what they say. Idle hands are the devil’s workshop.

  27. Lisa Harney Says:

    Of course there’s such a word, we’ve been using it. “Cis” is from the latin, like cislunar vs. translunar (although the words mean “on Earth’s side of the moon” and “opposite Earth’s side of the moon”). Cisgender is problematic for me, though, because it tends to cover people it ought not apply to. Generally, it means someone who’s on the traditional side of gender, whereas transgender means someone who’s not. And cissexual means someone who doesn’t want to change their sex, and transsexual means someone who does.

    Now, “biologically impossible” isn’t really applicable here. It’s biologically impossible to scale any kind of living thing’s structure up without change, and expect it to be able to support itself (the square-cube law). If you double a man’s height, you’ll increase his mass by a much greater degree, and the muscles and skeleton aren’t really designed for that stress. So, it’s biologically impossible to have really big people who look just like us, but are really big.

    But, really, human bodies aren’t all that differentiated by sex. After all, all fetuses start as female, and hormones are what trigger the development of male traits or the continued development of female traits, but human bodies in general have receptors for and the ability to use androgens or estrogens, meaning you can develop male or female secondary characteristics even though your body developed differently originally. This is why men who start lives as female who take testosterone get deeper voices and grow beards, and why women who start lives as male grow breasts and develop curves.

    But that’s beside the point, as opposed to defining women strictly by the capacity to bear children, and not really covering how women are treated socially vs. how men are treated socially, and how no one can see your womb or lack thereof when they decide to stop in the middle of the street in their nice Trans Ams and tell you all the things they’d love to do to your body because you’re a bitch who needs a good fucking, am I right? I get that experience, at least, and it’s disturbing, and sometimes scary. It’s not always a Trans Am, though.

    I think it’s a bit extreme to compare cisgender or cissexual or cis woman to things like, I dunno, “bitch,” “cunt,” “whore,” “ice queen,” and so on. At least “cis woman” only implies that you were born female and want to remain that way, and nothing more.

    Oh, right, I almost forgot - it’s very likely that science will be able to grow complete and fully functional gonads and genitalia from stem cells in the future, allowing trans women to bear children and trans men to father them. So, biologically impossible? No, biologically likely.

    Also, there was a time when “feminism” wasn’t a word. And “Lesbian” meant you were from Lesbos.

  28. Renegade Evolution Says:

    So lucky, what about those “born women” who can’t have kids? Or have excess body hair, muscular frames, and high testosterone levels? What are they? They have vaginas, but cannot reproduce? And gee, what’s in a name anyway? Cis, Trans, whatever, who gives a fuck, right? Like feminist, woman, activist, human, their just words, right? They don’t MEAN anything…

    So If I were to call you a bigotted squid, it means nothing, right???

  29. J.Goff Says:

    In short, transpeak is no more a language than Pig Latin.

    If that’s the case, then neither is your disgusting babble, jackass. Keep tweaking, it doesn’t make it any less gross.

  30. KH Says:

    This person, Luckynkl, seems not to understand the way language works, or what it is for something to be a word. But in the past she’s successfully used the words she now claims don’t exist, so it seems more likely she’s concerned to negate the existence of people, not words. But these people do exist, & aren’t going away, & there’s nothing cranks like her can do about it but rage.

  31. drakyn Says:

    You know Lucky, human partheogenesis (without cloning or other technology) isn’t biologically possible, but I’ve seen you argue it is.
    Maybe you shouldn’t talk about what’s biologically possible or not. ^.~
    And maybe you should take some science classes or look at a science book (borders doesn’t charge you to sit and look and neither does google or libraries)
    Just a thought Lucky-chan!
    ^.^

  32. belledame2222 Says:

    Alternately, maybe she should just have a nice steaming cup of STFU. finally. vile little nose goblin.

  33. KH Says:

    Drakyn, for all we know, she may be way ahead of you, & already have her own private Island of Dr. Moreau, teeming with hordes of little beta-version Luckynkl knock-offs, parthenogenetically generated. And to be honest, I wouldn’t mind having one of ‘em around the house, just as a pet & conversation-starter.

  34. Lisa Harney Says:

    I see Witchy Woo has waded into the fray:

    Apparently, being cisgendered and female are mutually exclusive.

    That’s right, if I point out you have cis privilege, that means I’m saying you don’t actually have a sex.

    Truthfully, her arguments in that post are why I don’t like using cisgender as a word, and try to stick to cissexual, since that’s fairly specific and cisgender is somewhat vague. A lot of people who don’t fit as transgender don’t necessarily fit as cisgender either, and the implied binary (I see it more as a…well, something more broadly defined and three dimensional than a spectrum) doesn’t help.

    Cissexual is pretty clear-cut: Do you want to change sex? No? Well, there you go.

    Still, neither cisgender nor cissexual have any bearing on whether you’re male or female or conflict with whether you’re male or female. They have to do with whether you’re comfortable with being male or female, being seen as being male or female, and so on. Referring to anyone as cisgender has nothing to do with denying their sex, and the argument itself is specious.

    Also, the wikipedia definition she cites sucks.

    As for Witchy: If everyone who is not trans stops referring to trans people as “trans,” and just refer to us by our preferred sex - trans men as men, and trans women as women, no qualifier, I’d be happy to drop cis to describe those who aren’t trans. We could just eliminate the distinction and the baggage that comes with it. Lacking that, I’d rather not stick to language that privileges and centers people who don’t want to change their sex as the norm and people who do want to as other.

  35. Natalia Antonova Says:

    Hey Lucky, aren’t you the same person who claimed that real womyn don’t give birth to males… or something?

    Forgive me if I refuse to take your “wisdom” on language seriously, in that light.

    The Christian fundamentalism thing is alive and well, I see. Idle hands and all that jazz. Do you think you might go blind because of masturbation? Perhaps Sanesha Stewart was murdered, Old Testament-style, because the Lord, our God decreed it so? The idiot just had too much TIME on her hands! What was she thinking?

    (Sorry, Lisa, this is pure snark and you can delete it)

  36. belledame2222 Says:

    kh: just don’t feed them after midnight, or get them wet.

    and: oh sweet lordies, witchy now, the world’s just become a little bit dumber.

    honestly, the combined forces from these people, it’s like this sucking black hole of stupid and mean-minded.

  37. Daisy Says:

    I wanna hear Lucky talk some more about how she only had female babies because she WILLED IT SO.

    Greatest hits from the Ms board, redux. I loved that one.

  38. drakyn Says:

    Daisy, do you think we can get a techno remix maybe?
    You know, spice up the old memes.

  39. Stassa Says:

    vile little nose goblin.

    Oy! What’s with the goblin bashing now? Don’t tell me your’e an elf person??

  40. Stassa Says:

    Sport, when you do that thing with the eybrow [^.~], you make me wish you were my age. Just sayin’. #^_^

  41. Stassa Says:

    Unless I missed the part where the mtf trans can now pull babies out of their ass?

    ‘Cause, like, that’s what females do, you know, they pull babies out of their arses.

    That’s the famous Lycky, huh? Can’t see what the fuss is all about, really.

  42. Lisa Harney Says:

    Yeah, I didn’t approve her other post because she referred to trans women as men in it, and I won’t approve that. She comes pretty close in this one, but it is mild compared to other stuff she’s posted - like comparing us to “Buffalo Bill” of Silence of the Lambs, or implying that womanhood is a mask for us just as werewolfness is a mask for someone in a wolfman costume, and so on.

    Overall, her anti-trans arguments aren’t really very effective or informed, but they can be vicious and nasty.

  43. drakyn Says:

    Sorry, Stassa, women are rarely my type–and my boyfriend would object. =^.^=
    And I prefer dwarves or changelings or kender–especially kender**–to goblins.
    Or dragons, dragons are the best. } : =8}

    When I’m in the right mood Lucky’s comments are really amusing. But then I remember she’s not a MRA troll parodying feminists and I get sad. ; _ ;

    **I am not a thief! It fell into my pocket! (points to the D&D geeks)
    And I am having fun with emoticons–I haven’t used them this much since sophomore year of high school!

  44. Stassa Says:

    other stuff she’s posted - like … implying that womanhood is a mask for us just as werewolfness is a mask for someone in a wolfman costume, and so on.

    Has she got trans confused with furries? Maybe she gets her info from El Goonish Shive? That said, faced with the choice between being magically transformed in a beautiful cheetah or a proud lioness and a natal female, I’m not sure I’d be able to choose.

    Sorry, Stassa, women are rarely my type–and my boyfriend would object. =^.^=
    And I prefer dwarves or changelings or kender–especially kender**–to goblins.
    Or dragons, dragons are the best. } : =8}

    You break my heart in twain. Oh well, here, :P (<– staple smilie, not one of your fancy sophomoric ones, you insolent youth! … nyeh nyeh!)

    On Kryn I’m a Minotaur. Well. Mino- cow. Though nobody calls me a cow in my face. Except for, guess what race of insufferable little thieving pests… >:|

    And Goblins are really dragon kin, I shall have you know. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Are too. Dee too.

    Jus’ like Kobolds. Hah!

  45. nexyjo Says:

    oppressed groups do have one privilege; we get to label our oppressors with whatever name we choose. as one example, jews have been calling non-jews “gentiles” for thousands of years. and we don’t give a rats ass whether they like it or not.

  46. Stassa Says:

    Just so you know, we bloody well don’t you damned barbarian!

    (adding a smilie, just so you know one is due—> :P)

  47. Lisa Harney Says:

    Nexy, that’s a great quote.

    I quoted you on Polly Styrene’s blog. :)

  48. belledame222 Says:

    ooooooh, they won’t like that one.

    “we are NOT oppressors!! of ANYONE!! least of all anyone we’ve deemed MEN!! IMPOSSIBLE, HOW DARE YOU…”

  49. daisydeadhead Says:

    I never learned to properly do trackbacks, so consider this one!

    Feminist update: the transgender wars rage on!

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