Harry Benjamin Syndrome and the Trans Rights Movement

It looks like HBS advocates want to join transphobic radical feminists in accusing the so-called “transgender movement” of ruining things for everyone else.

It really helps to read some of the HBS writings to see where they’re coming from with regards to transsexualism and transgenderism. It also helps to read some quotations from actual online discussions. Yes, Drakyn does refer to some HBS advocates as bigots, but look at what they write about transgenderism in general, as well as those who continue to identify as transsexual:

Many of course will continue to see our condition as being transsexualism and many others, for whatever their reasons, will list transsexualism as a sub-set of transgender. Of course that is not correct and never was but for some they found comfort in not being linked to any term with ‘sex’ in it. Now they, those with true HBS, have no reason to make any claim but that they were born with the syndrome. We ask that a competent psychiatrist or therapist dealing with the condition to make a reasonable confirmation that the patient has Harry Benjamin Syndrome. It should not simply be a claim made by someone that they suffer from HBS as has often been done in the past with transsexualism. It should be a verifiable medical condition as is the proper procedure with almost all physical maladies. 

Of course there will be some who will continue to use transsexualism and transgenderism to cover and mask what they really might be, sexual fetishists, sex merchants, exhibitionist, cross-dressers, delusional transvestites who ‘go the extra step’ and opt to have a ‘sex change’ so as to enhance their fetishism. They wish to mimic women but do not have the inborn need to be women physically reflective of the brain. Many call themselves lifelong pre-ops and even non-ops and never desire the affirmation surgery. To refer to them as having HBS is not only a misnomer but also an insult to those who actually have the syndrome and to those who have had corrective surgery that affirmed their body to their brains.

HBS advocacy is also tied up in some degree of heterosexism:

Harry Benjamin Syndrome is not in any way connected to sexual orientation nor should it be ever be compared to any deviance. It is a medical anomaly that often is compared to other conditions wrongly thereby causing great stress upon those with the syndrome being put into categories in which they do not and should not be placed. Those with HBS do not change gender and do not suffer from what had been commonly classified as transsexualism. Their brain gender at birth was not in need of correction even if that were possible. And, in reality, those born with HBS do not need to trans their sex since the brain sex was already set and only the genital sex needed correction so as to be affirmed with the brain.

Of course, this stuff is pretty tame as compared to a particular HBS-oriented blog. For example, the blog author sought to criticize a two-part article I wrote back in November:

Recently, while surfing the web I came across a blog in which the author posted a treatise entitled Sex, Lies, Transmisogyny, and the Heteronormativity of BDSM, pt 2.  It was placed by the writer under her following blog categories: BDSMMWMFOppression Olympicsanti-transgender feminismfeminismhorizontal oppressionlesbiantransmisogynytransphobia, and  transsexual

Yeah…that’s what I thought too.

Having no interest whatsoever in reading what is clearly psuedointellectual rubbish, to put it kindly, I did find myself wondering what type of person would read something so contrived and meaningless.  Skimming to the bottom of the page, I found to my surprise there were no less than 32 comments by readers who evidently did find the epic worth the effort.  I also found out who might be interested.

The author dismisses the article on the basis of the title (based on the article I was fisking, “Sex, Lies, and Feminism” from the Questioning Transgender Politics website) and the tags and categories I used. A casual reading of “Enough Non-Sense” shows that many of the posts show little more thought than this - aimed as they are at attacking the “transgender movement,” delegitimizing it, and presenting it as a pack of pretenders, deviants, and perverts. Read the comments in the above quoted post, where several HBS advocates blame the LGBT movement for society viewing trans women as invalid women:

You are absolutely right when you say that men often leave HBS (Harry Benjamin Syndrome) women “because heterosexual society teaches him that transsexual women aren’t real women, and that being one makes him somehow gay.” I really don’t think anyone would argue that point.

However, though it’s not because the very vast majority of transgender activist use big words, it is because of what they say and their political position. And, I think many people would argue that.

It is all but impossible to find a transgender activist blog or web site that does not make it perfectly clear they fully support the GLB and the associated T. And THE issue is that association of the GLB with the T. It is that association that teaches, to use your term, the heterosexual mainstream.

Of course, looking at the quote in Drakyn’s blog post about “HBS bigots,” you can see an HBS advocate basically laying the blame for any discrimination or bigotry that trans people face at those trans people’s feet - it’s not because society really views trans people as invalid in our proper gender, it’s because we bring it upon ourselves. Transphobia and transmisogyny apparently didn’t exist prior to adding the T to LGBT.

But read the posts on “Enough Non-Sense” and see what HBS advocates bring to the table, and then read Cathryn’s lament on why there’s so much friction between HBS advocates and those of us who do not identify as HBS. For my part, I have little sympathy for HBS advocates because their definitions are restrictive and often bigoted. I have seen HBS advocates describe trans women who have not had surgery as “penis people,” and similar dehumanizing terms. They play gender gatekeepers, trying to establish a “trans hierarchy,” with them at the top as the only legitimate “women.” They insist that any true trans person (defined as HBS) will be able to pay for every aspect of transition - hormones, psychiatrist, surgery, electrolysis, etc - without any serious trouble, and those who cannot are simply not genuine.

Do I hate them? No, but I view them as categorically wrong and selfish. Uninformed and strangely unaware of the realities of living as a trans person, especially a trans person of color, or with low income, or with health issues that make surgery risky. Their viewpoint is black and white: You’re either exactly like them, or you’re a cross-dressing pervert.

And, of course, they’ve provided Heart with inspiration to yet again blog about how horrible trans people are. As is usual, Heart is quick to agree with anyone who is willing to say horrible things about trans people.*

Heart makes it clear she doesn’t even understand the debate she’s trying to comment on:

Evidently the objections of post-op transwomen are resulting in the kinds of no-holds-barred attacks from non-op transpersons (who never intend to “op” nor even live as women most of the time) with which some of us are all too familiar.  I mean, what’s wrong with you. 

Ignoring the fact that I absolutely loathe “non-op.” “post-op” and “pre-op” because of what they mean (”This is what my crotch looks like”), Heart simply assumes that Cathryn’s characterization is correct - that all trans people who disagree with HBS advocacy are automatically men who wear dresses and nothing more - no hormones, no surgery, and apparently no men who were born female-bodied. This is remarkably convenient for her to believe, since it lets her rush into bathroom panic scenarios, and discussion about how trans women are not and can never really be women like cis women are:

Being a woman is about being mistreated by patriarchy because of our female bodies.    That mistreatment — in whatever its form — is what female persons know and share as women.  It’s what those who have not lived as female persons and women do not know and so they dismiss what we, as women, say about our lives, our realities, our fears, what we need.  Sometimes they don’t just dismiss, they steamroll over us, and so far, there has been little we could do about that.

This paragraph is ironic because Heart talks about trans women dismissing and sometimes steamrollering over her. This is the same cis woman who implied another blogger was guilty of plagiarism because said blogger used goddess imagery and is a trans woman, and who would not allow this blogger to respond on womensspace. She also aggressively moderates her blog to keep dissenting viewpoints to a minimum, and has been known to aggressively edit some of those dissenting viewpoints.

In my opinion, Heart presumes too much. She believes that it is impossible for trans women to understand womanhood, but is also more than willing to describe every aspect of a trans woman’s experience - this is a contradiction, but one inherent to privilege. It’s normal for people with white privilege to tell people of color what their lives are like, for able-bodied people to tell people with disabilities what their lives are like, for heterosexual people to tell gay men and lesbian women what their lives are like, and for cissexual people to tell transsexual people what their lives are like.

But this is a contradiction, a paradox. If a cis woman’s life is completely opaque to me as a trans woman, then I fail to see how a cis woman could possibly understand my life. If Heart wants to make sense, she should either stop describing what she thinks trans lives are like (considering that she’s so tied up in her prejudices, she’s pretty much always wrong), or she should accept that trans women experience more of womanhood than many radical feminists are willing to admit.

I’m not really addressing Heart’s basic argument - most of my early posts already address the foundations of radical transphobia and she literally has nothing new to add on this front, and hasn’t for the six years I’ve seen her online.

The beautiful and talented Queen Emily adds this in comments, which I wish I’d thought to say:

Yeah. The patently obvious problem is this:

HBS people advocate rights for only one kind of trans* person - a post-operative trans person. They not only sneer and disrespect any other version of transgender, but actively campaign against other trans* people having rights before surgery. The comments on Transadvocate, where the HBS Leigh said she’d fire pre-operative transgendered people, report them to the police, and so on are indicative of this.

This HBS woman suggests that a transgendered world would end in paedophilia and constant rape, in the lurid terms fundamentalist Christians use to describe gays and lesbians:

http://ts-si.org/content/view/2872/995/

“Shut the hell up and don’t trouble the gender binary” is the very clear message from HBS. How exactly this fits with Heart’s brand of womyn-identified-womyn radical feminism I do not know. HBS is not progressive, indeed at worst it’s actively opposed to some pretty basic tenets of feminism. As you point out, it’s hugely homophobic.

In contrast, the transgendered organisation I work for supports rights trans* people NO MATTER their surgical status, and we have a very clear feminist ethos. But I guess, the enemy of my enemy is my friend for Heart..

* Heart should be aware that HBS advocates are fond of homophobic posturing, and Bailey has written on eugenics, and wrote a paper on why it’s morally okay to abort homosexual fetuses identified in the womb. Just being transphobic (internalized or externalized) probably shouldn’t be the best reason to rush to their side and join in on the trannie condemnation, you know?

109 Responses to “Harry Benjamin Syndrome and the Trans Rights Movement”

  1. belledame2222 Says:

    >>You are absolutely right when you say that men often leave HBS (Harry Benjamin Syndrome) women “because heterosexual society teaches him that transsexual women aren’t real women, and that being one makes him somehow gay.” I really don’t think anyone would argue that point.>>

    oh, they can fuck right off. Right the way off. Right; and it’s axiomatic that ZOMG Teh Gay Git It Off Me is a natural response, right?

    and of course Heart’s engaging these people; they’re her own personal animate scarecrow army.

  2. belledame2222 Says:

    and it’s incredibly fucking gross of her to latch onto this shit as proof of whatever spavined point she has; would she see it if it were, o I don’t know, MRA’s using Phyllis Schlafly to bolster their points about “the feminist agenda?” no, wait, don’t tell me: that’s TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

  3. Lisa Harney Says:

    I like how she goes on to say that the trans movement would have ruined her otherwise happy relationship if it existed then.

    Heart engages anyone who says horrible things about trans people, and she apparently doesn’t give a damn as to how vile or disagreeable they may be about anything else. Hating the trannies is enough for her love.

  4. queen emily Says:

    Yeah. The patently obvious problem is this:

    HBS people advocate rights for only one kind of trans* person - a post-operative trans person. They not only sneer and disrespect any other version of transgender, but actively campaign against other trans* people having rights before surgery. The comments on Transadvocate, where the HBS Leigh said she’d fire pre-operative transgendered people, report them to the police, and so on are indicative of this.

    This HBS woman suggests that a transgendered world would end in paedophilia and constant rape, in the lurid terms fundamentalist Christians use to describe gays and lesbians:

    http://ts-si.org/content/view/2872/995/

    “Shut the hell up and don’t trouble the gender binary” is the very clear message from HBS. How exactly this fits with Heart’s brand of womyn-identified-womyn radical feminism I do not know. HBS is not progressive, indeed at worst it’s actively opposed to some pretty basic tenets of feminism. As you point out, it’s hugely homophobic.

    In contrast, the transgendered organisation I work for supports rights trans* people NO MATTER their surgical status, and we have a very clear feminist ethos. But I guess, the enemy of my enemy is my friend for Heart..

  5. Lisa Harney Says:

    That’s true - and you know, if any trans people latched onto some vitriolic right wing feminazi bashing just because it was anti-feminist, she’d flip out and froth at the mouth, further proving to her how horrible trans people are.

    Because it’s totally different.

    But then again, I have to consider the source. I mean, this is the same cis woman who wandered into a thread about white privilege and made it all into a direct and personal attack on her, then flounced off forever a few times in a row:

    http://feminazi.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/white-privilege/

    Em, yeah, that’s pretty vile stuff. Thank you for that post - it’s stuff I should’ve thought to say.

  6. jayinchicago Says:

    It should not simply be a claim made by someone that they suffer from HBS as has often been done in the past with transsexualism. It should be a verifiable medical condition as is the proper procedure with almost all physical maladies.

    I wonder how they purport to do that.
    HBS was discussed over on free_speech_ftm/livejournal here:
    http://community.livejournal.com/free_speech_ftm/68402.html

  7. jayinchicago Says:

    can someone explain to me how to quote on wordpress?

  8. Lisa Harney Says:

    You tag the quoted part with blockquote and /blockquote.

    Would you like me to edit your post so it’s properly a quote?

    Also, I couldn’t find any way to determine how to medically diagnose HBS without the patient’s input. It’s sort of like saying that we can’t diagnose headaches on the basis of someone saying she has a headache.

  9. queen emily Says:

    Feel free to quote me Lisa if you wanna tweak the post.

    A description like “the always amazing Queen Emily” will not be looked upon unfavourably ;)

  10. Stassa Says:

    That TS-SI post is some weird stuff.

    On the other hand, you seem to be wrong, according to one of the nonsense blog owners. Susan insists that:

    Not once, not one time, anywhere, EVER…have I even vaguely referred to anyone who identifies as transgendered…as a sex pervert or a deviant.

    That’s from a comment on my blog. On the other hand, she’s quick to attack people with “you are not a woman, just an effeminate gay male who crossdresses to attract males”. Not an exact quote, but she does that a lot and so does Leigh, the other poster on the blog. They seem to use “she-male” a bit liberally too, to put it mildly. But maybe they don’t undersand that the way they use those descriptions are offensive to people? ::shrug::

    Also, this is a post on the nonsense blog about their view on everything and everyone:

    http://enoughnonsense.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/the-castand-our-position/

    It actually does sound pretty tame. The truth is that, both Susan and Leigh have recently started trying to distance themselves both from harry-benjamin-syndrome.org and from the general HBS agenda, I think because they freaked out with the backlash their bullshit caused. Their older posts are certainly much more offensive than their recent ones. That one about your own post is typical.

    All that said, there’s something I still wonder about: who the hell was Harry Benjamin? Come to that, who was that Virginia Prince person with the umbrellas, and what do they have to do with my life- and that of anyone except the 150 transsexuals who ientify as HBS and gather under its banner. And it’s not really that much of a rhetorical question. There are transsexuals in other parts of the world, you know.

  11. jayinchicago Says:

    Yes, please fix my quote. Thanks!

    I think that if it’s eventually determined that their are biological influences in transsexuality–I won’t be exactly shocked. But HBS is cart-before-horse to the extreme.

  12. drakyn Says:

    Yeah Jay, I like the idea of this brain-sex/neural-map theory (minus the adherence to gender/sex roles some folk link to it), but it is no where close to being proven and the few studies done are not conclusive.

    And, oddly enough, after writing that post, I read some HBS women who are adamantly opposed to the bigoted views so often intertwined with HBS information. (Like Laura from Laura’s Playground.

    Harry Benjamin was the one to coin “transsexual” and was the first in the US to treat trans*folk with hormones and recommend surgery (Magnus Hirschfeld, in pre-Nazi Germany, also treated trans*folk with hormones and certain kinds of surgeries, but his work was lost when the Nazis destroyed his Institute and his work with trans*folk is mostly forgotten by history).
    I don’t know much about Virginia Prince, but this seems well-researched.

    And Leigh told me I was jeopardizing her legal right to marry. I am still unclear as to how I am doing this (HBS folks categorized under transgender umbrella + ??? = disaster).

  13. Nick Kiddle Says:

    You are absolutely right when you say that men often leave HBS (Harry Benjamin Syndrome) women “because heterosexual society teaches him that transsexual women aren’t real women, and that being one makes him somehow gay.” I really don’t think anyone would argue that point.

    However, though it’s not because the very vast majority of transgender activist use big words, it is because of what they say and their political position. And, I think many people would argue that.

    I may be misparsing this, because reading it too closely makes me feel sick, but it seems to be saying “If we only throw all of those weird ones under the bus, we’ll get mainstream acceptance for sure.”

  14. Lisa Harney Says:

    Stassa, the pervert vibe came largely from the piece that Emily linked, which I had read before, but forgot. Also, the stream of pejoratives about “men in dresses,” “deviants,” etc who supposedly fill up the “transgender movement.” In English, when you’re saying deviant, it usually parses right back as pervert.

    And the only reason I even posted about this was the big splash on Pam’s House Blend featuring Cathryn not understanding “Why HBS advocates get such a bad rap from other trans people,” or at least implying that they never ever say or do anything to make anyone angry at them before the anger starts up. And that Heart/Womensspace decided it was necessary to cheer that on.

  15. Stassa Says:

    Hey sport. Sure I know who H.B. was. My point is that I first heard about him when I started looking about trans stuff on the internet. I found the standards of care and they seemed completely loopy and entirely irrelevant to my life and the life of the transwomen I knew. The thing is, if you want to start transitioning in Greece as in many other countries (Thailandia for example), there is nothing stopping you, because there is no medical experts (yet) to get in the way. You can get your hormones from the pharmacy without a prescription and you do your “real life test” willing or not, ’cause, once you start transitioning, it’s hard to fit into a male role ever again afterwards. Surgery may be a bit more complicated, but that’s only ’cause you have to go abroad and so need to produce a certificate from a psych.

    But, really, the concept that you have to prove anything to anyone, with respect to being a transsexual, is the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard in any of my lives - and I did use to be Cleopatra, you know. :P Having to prove yourself as a woman, yeah, maybe, but- a tranny? ‘S crazy. Though it has been thrown to me, that I’m just a perv for not finding girls icky. Eh.

    Actually, I always get the impression that the root of all the distinctions between ts and tg is care- who’ll get it, how easily and at what price. Also, it was folks like HB and Vincent Price, who started all the classification and stratification. I mean, really. They so look like D&D character classes. Like, “I’m Tanya, a stunning lvl 2 Transgendered/ lvl 3 Transvestite with Breast Implants +1, and a Wig of Passing.”

    As I said before, the rest of the world besides America uses “transsexual” as a catch-all term and they include non- and post- ops just fine in it. From the few places I know of, they have a more or less impolite term, such as travesti or kathoey and then there’s transsexual that you can say in polite company, but that’s it.

    And HB or no HB, the fact that transsexuals are born that way, is like, common sense (ugh. Soap!). I’m not kidding. I’ve never had to make that point, nor did I ever have it contested, except by my parents who were keen to prove there must be something wrong with my brain. I mean, something besides HBS. But except them, everybody takes it for granted I was born that way and they don’t need to hear technical details about my brain.

    Like I said, it’s a whole big world out there and the HBS fruity loops are only a fringe group in America and that’s it.

  16. Stassa Says:

    Lisa; hey, I know, I understand the context of “deviant” and the rest. My English is not that bad… :( Actualy “transvestite” sounds a lot like “travesti”, which, as I said is not a polite word to say (although there’s worse than it) And I also understand very well the difference between calling yourself one thing and having someone else use it on you.

    Susan and her friends gave me the “she-male” treatment and I was livid, though I did use it to describe myself in the past (because it got up the nose of the true trannies™ so easily.) It’s like “nigger”, “faggot” and “Paki”, ja?

    Yes, I understand exactly what the terminology used by the HBS sites is doing, it’s insidious and I’m sure they smile little smug self-satisfied smiles when they write that shit, like “we never call them anything bad- why, they call themselves crossdressers, don’t they? We just tell it as it is”. And stuff like that. They even say that “LGBT people should have “some” rights”. Like, that’s proof they’re treating people fair, right? Yeah, well bullshit. But of course, when you tell them that they start arguing terminology and semantics, again in a completely twisted way- and you get nowhere.

  17. Lisa Harney Says:

    Cathryn trolls again in support of Lisa Vogel and Barney Frank.

    I’m surprised she didn’t actually trot out the story of the alleged trans women exposing penises in the MWMF shower.

    Also, Nick Kiddle: As far as I can tell, that’s exactly what it means.

    Stassa, not that I’m disagreeing with you, but didn’t you once scold me for using “transsexual” that way?

    Anyway, as for international applicability, I can’t guarantee every post will apply outside the US or outside the blogosphere - although I would love to have more posts that do apply outside the US and the blogosphere. I don’t think the HBS people are all that big a deal, and would rather not post about them at all.

  18. Lisa Harney Says:

    Oops, sorry, I wasn’t trying to imply your English was bad. I didn’t read your initial sarcasm properly, though.

    And you are totally right about she-male - did you see Megan Julca’s run-in with the HBS people (Susan and a few others) on one of the Susan Stanton threads? They started tearing her down because her blog’s sub-title is “That Fucking She-Male” apparently without bothering to find out where it came from or why Megan uses it.

    Fun times.

    Also, I thought in France (at least) that “travesti” was their word for ‘transvestite.” At least, that’s the word Eddie Izzard uses when he’s delivering a routine in French and talking about cross-dressing.

  19. drakyn Says:

    Stassa, can you get Testosterone from the pharmacy?! Because, damn it, it’s a controlled substance here and I can’t find a single website anywhere that’ll let me get it without a prescription. If Greek trans*guys can get it I envy them.

    Hehehe, I’m getting into D&D and other role-playing games after being interested in them my whole life…
    I have a haircut of passing and a naturally flat chest +3. ^.~

    Here, I think it may have something to do with the Puritan origins of the colonies, but everything from being queer to depressed to trans* is seen as a choice and You Could Fix Yourself If You Only Tried (and believed in Jesus enough); so we feel the need to find ways of proving that we don’t have a choice and that it is natural andpleasejustletmebe.

  20. Lisa Harney Says:

    Drakyn, that “you could fix yourself if only you tried and believed in Jesus enough” attitude is strongly aimed at people with disabilities too. How many of the prejudices parallel for trans and disability parallel surprised me.

    That reminds me that I have to follow through on that tag that Shiva gave me.

  21. Stassa Says:

    OK, to cut them some slack, the truth is that TS-SI, bloody-stupid-nonsense.com and Hairy-Benjamin.org are different sides.

    Susan and Leigh, who run the of-stellar-proportions-nonsense.com site, are taking a stance against the other two, maybe only slightly so, but it’s visible enough and I’m sure they’re taking flack from their friends for it. Here, check out this convo:

    http://transadvocate.com/nexy/2008/01/24/the-trans-wars/#comments

    Where Susan says:

    … the insinuation you make, and the conclusion of my position that you direct your readers, i.e., that I support the HBS site, is a support I have never given and is not accurate.

    And here:

    On my blog, there have been comments linking to the HBS site: I did not respond. There have been suggestions that I follow a more specific path in using definitions, etc; I didn’t respond and didn’t follow the suggestion. I don’t support the HBS site that you link to

    And Leigh has ventured further afield into the real world, in this post at transadvocate:

    http://transadvocate.com/transphobia/with-apologies-to-radical-feminists.htm#comments

    I do not consider myself an HBS/Transsexual.

    And then she goes on to explain what she doesn’t agree with HBS on (and what she doesn’t.)

    I’m saying all this because, though I’d like to go pogo on those two particular goons heads with lead boots and then shove my arm down their throats and pull out their spines, they’re actually trying to engage people in what is their very limited concept of a reasonable dialogue and that’s a Good Thing™ for all sides. Some other transwomen who identify as HBS may think “hey, so there’s others who feel uncomfortable with the party line” and then decide to put some space between themselves and TS-SI and Hairy-Benjamin.org and the yahoo groups that Laura links to. Which is a Better Thing™ because those places hurt transsexals in a very evil and disgusting way. They’re Stupid and Evil…!

    Again, Susan and Leigh need kicking, hard, but they do have the balls to stand out from their crowd. Probably they find the courage due to the attention their site gets and all, but it’s still a good thing, ™ and ©. They show that you can stand behind HBS without sucking up to the bullies (I haven’t noticed Susan and Leigh bullying, just offending.)

    Yeah, and, to answer your obvious question, they just made me mad. Beyond telling. Hey, I got triggers too y’know?

  22. drakyn Says:

    I don’t know about Leigh, but Susan wasn’t singing this tune on queerty when she was calling Megan a gay male and toting the “transsexuals were perfectly fine until those queers and transgenders got together and ruined it” line (in one sentence on post #66, even!).

  23. Lisa Harney Says:

    This is from a few weeks ago, but Susan does seem to support HBS, or at least conflates transsexualism with HBS-style politics.

    She also conflates my dislike of HBS advocacy with a lack of surgery. I’ve run up against that before - my disagreement with future HBS advocates (HBS wasn’t around then) that womanhood solely and entirely comes with a vagina (I don’t think so) obviously meant that I never had surgery and never planned to have surgery. They just couldn’t imagine a trans woman who’d had (or at least planned for) surgery disagreeing with their “self-evident truths.”

  24. Danae L. M. Says:

    It would be kind of nice of Susan to say that if she actually meant it - on the other hand, she has kind of posted a number of positive comments at Ts-Si, and she referenced a few guest opeds there on her blog in the recent past.
    So it has to be a recent change of heart.

  25. Stassa Says:

    Huh. See why I hate those people. I try to give them credit and they manage to make me look like an idiot…

    No, you’re right Drakyn and I know about that queerty exchange, I read it all and Megan kicked Susan’s and Leigh’s ass (at least I think it was Leigh; she signed as “Leah”, but I figured she’s the same person, because she was using “mainstream” as a first name, like Leigh does… )

    The thing is, they’re trying to strike a balance between offending people and engaging them in conversation. In doing so, they keep contradicting themselves. In that post from nexy’s blog above, you can see Susan claiming, first that she never said she is a woman with no qualifiers and then that, yeah, she did absolutely say that she is a woman with qualifiers. The problem is their English is horrible and they don’t understand what they or the others are saying, most of the time. Except when they call you a perv. That they get fine.

    Lisa, they do that damn thing all the bloody time. You speak against them and you must be against srs. Then of course people laugh at them and keep their private lives private from the idiots and the idiots go “ha, I knew it” and it’s just a big joke. And if you tell them you’ve had srs, they turn around and tell you it doesn’t prove anything, because you don’t call yourself HBS, which is, like, the true criterion of a true transsexual. . Yeah, ™. Or, because you didn’t have it ten years ago, or your surgeon was crap. It’s crazy- you can’t argue.

  26. drakyn Says:

    Or you bring up that many of their little theories and statements don’t work for trans*guys (like penis=men’s room and vagina=women’s room) and either they don’t care/ignore you or suddenly they’re contradicting themselves.

  27. Lisa Harney Says:

    Stassa, yeah, all true. They just shift the goalposts so the standards for excluding you continue to exclude you.

    And I have a longish complaint about the obsession with trans genitals, and the belief that anyone has the right to interrogate us about what they look like. After all, I hear cis people tell each other about their genitals in great detail.

  28. Stassa Says:

    Hah. My hyperactive Data Analysis Gland has detected another logical fallacy, nested deep inside the HBS party line!

    The statement:

    (The transgendered claim to be women with penises

    AND

    The transgendered deny us womanhood when they say our vaginas are only inverted penises)

    throws out the following exception:

    ++++ OUT OF CHEESE ERROR! PLEASE FEED THE GERBIL++++

    It doesn’t even return false, it doesn’t just not compute, if you try to feed it through any sensible logical circuit, it will get up off its board, take off its flip-flops and slap you around like a bitch with them until you shriek for help.

    It makes NO. SENSE! whatsoever. That anyone could claim to be a woman with a penis and deny you womanhood on the basis of you also having one- It’s crap.

    And for the record, the stuff about “mutilated crotches”, I’ve only heard them from HBS types, at this point. I’ve never heard anyone saying that- though I bet someone, somewhere is such an insensitive idiot.

    Basically, my conclusion is the HBSes don’t know who those “transgendered” are that threaten them. They just throw a message of hate for them in a bottle on the net and when someone reads it and comes to investigate, they figure “ah, so that’s a transgendered” and they start attacking them.

    They’re just bloody clueless.

  29. Lisa Harney Says:

    I’ve seen certain radical feminists talk about mutilated crotches, but these cis women also compare transition to killing a cis woman and wearing her skin, so you have to consider the source.

    And your conclusion is probably correct.

  30. Stassa Says:

    And I have a longish complaint about the obsession with trans genitals, and the belief that anyone has the right to interrogate us about what they look like. After all, I hear cis people tell each other about their genitals in great detail.

    Hah. Yeah. Cis people even set up special pages where they discuss that kind of stuff. Sure, all the time. Like, here:

    Drakyn. Trans guys?

    Huh? Wassat? More transgendered? I KNEW IT!!

    P.S. Am I commenting too much? <_<#

  31. drakyn Says:

    *turns into a bisexual unicorn and poofs out of existence*

  32. Lisa Harney Says:

    No, not commenting too much at all.

  33. Stassa Says:

    oK ^_^*

  34. belledame2222 Says:

    the fundamental belief here, sadly, would seem to boil down to

    “There’s not enough to go around/it’s no good if I have to share & can’t be SPECIAL”

  35. gorgonqueen Says:

    On Transadvocate I’ve taken what appears to be a narrow window of opportunity opened up by Leigh’s HBS apostasy to take a step toward honest examination of actual experience, and past the reflexive prejudice that armors the fundamentalist worldview.

    I’m not sure I hold any real hope for the outcome, and I don’t really see this as a conflict to be “won” - another fundamentalist trope - but it is at least helping to perceive the envelope of their perspective and premises… an envelope which, I think, is broader than they themselves want to believe as emotionally committed as they are to simpler certainties.

    Oh, and… good to see you back in form, Lisa :-)

  36. Stassa Says:

    Val- the question is, what are you trying to achieve? Are you trying to make them change their views to yours, or just respect yours?

    ‘Cause I don’t think you have a chance or a right to change their views, but you can manage the second one fine.

    Anyway, in view of recent findings, like, I don’t blame Susan or Leigh that much anymore. Even in view of Susan’s underpants tactics. I think the simple truth is we’ve all been trolled to hell. And that’s from, like, a self-confessed troll, right? Look here:

    http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Jennifer_Usher_%28Usenet_Troll%29

    Yeah, that’s Dipshit down there, aka Diane “Hairy Benjamin” Kearny, aka Diane Lask, aka Diane Arons, aka David Arons. I did a bit of looking into alt.srs- the views, at least, match perfectly. You’ll also recognise Sue Robins and Just Jennifer aka Jennifer Usher aka Lardo (hah)

  37. gorgonqueen Says:

    Yikes.

    Indeed, it seems that while certain self-described “true transsexuals” believe they have been hijacked by “transgenders”, they have in fact been hijacked by a particularly demented little gangwar operating under the pretension of HBS.

    I think I’ve seen too much to expect respect, and I certainly don’t have enough hubris to believe that I can persuade anyone of anything. All I can do is be as clear as possible, to not let nuance be erased, and to leave a thread through the labyrinth.

  38. nexyjo Says:

    excellent thread and insightful comments. there’s so much going on over the last week or so, and this provides a pretty comprehensive overview, as far as i can tell.

    my feeling is that no matter how we divide ourselves as a group (trans/hbs/gay/etc), the world at large makes no such distinctions. we are all the same despite our best efforts for differentiation. i believe our only hope is to come together - there’s strength in numbers - divided we fall. it’s a cliché, i know, but i think it totally applies here.

    and for what it’s worth, you can call me a shemale (i lost count of the number of hits i get on my site from search engines looking for “post-op shemales”), a man in a dress, a homosexual, whatever - just don’t call me late for dinner :P

  39. Lisa Harney Says:

    Diane Lask? Jennifer Usher? Oh, god… I didn’t really see much from Kearny, just heard, but still. Some bad pennies never go away.

  40. Stassa Says:

    Oi! I missed comments 17-20. There was a message about server maintainance? I think. After I posted comment 16. So I waited a while and I missed yours, guys, Lisa and Drakyn.

    So, here:

    Lisa:

    Stassa, not that I’m disagreeing with you, but didn’t you once scold me for using “transsexual” that way?

    Yeah, I put my foot in it all the time. This time… er, when was it? I may be able to extract the foot… Seriously, I don’t remember the convo…

    I know about the queerty post. It made me so mad. It also made me think that Susan must be out of her mind- I mean, she’s 50+ and she linked to pics of hers to compare herself to Megan. Who’s, like, what, is she even 20? Honestly! And then she started accusing Megan of photoshopping her pictures.

    About “travesti”, it means “masquerading”, as in “un bal travesti”, meaning “fancy dress party”. The word for “transvestite” is “travelot. It comes from travesti, and it’s a slur-ish form, kinda like “transvestiterer” or something. Travesti is the Greek and Spanish word for transvestite and I think they are borrowed from French. Wow. Listen to me go. I’m like, the new Virginia Prince or something…

    Sport:

    I’m not sure about the T. I’m afraid it may be harder to get than the estrogens, because the body builders and the athletes use it and it’s got some bad reputation with attention from the press and stuff. So pharmacists may be loathe to sell it. Truth is, I have no idea :( Sorry dude, I don’t speak about transmen, ’cause I don’t know shit about your stuff. Not ’cause I don’t give a shit about your stuff though.

    My only transman friend is a Greek dude living in London and I’m not even sure he’s full time and all. He’s a king for sure and a damn hot one at that. He used to have a crush on me when we were at school and he was my best, well, he was my best girlfriend back then, to be honest, but he didn’t know he was going to be a guy when we grew up. Or me a girl. We met much later. Big story. Shit, I have to blog that.

    I did try to make a whole tg-themed rpg, at some point, and discussed it at the Forge. But it sucked so much. Even I got bored. :(

    I believed in Jeebus when I was young. And all I got was paranoid hysteria, an MIA spirit guide and tits. Well, I don’t mind the tits. But I did specifically ask for them to be big like watermelons. Instead- pah. There is no god. Trust me.

  41. jayinchicago Says:

    My point is that I first heard about him when I started looking about trans stuff on the internet. I found the standards of care and they seemed completely loopy and entirely irrelevant to my life and the life of the transwomen I knew.

    I’d like to point out that while I disagree with some of the stipulations for starting hormone care, i am generally in favor of standards of care when it comes to giving medical health professionals guidelines and rules about respectfully and accurately treating their transsexual patients. I think GID is a crock of hooey, but I still think the SOC is necessary in a nongatekeeper-y role.

  42. jayinchicago Says:

    Ok so I wasn’t going to do it, but I started reading through some of those links. I noticed that trans men were hardly mentioned at all, so I started thinking “oh good, this doesn’t involve me.” nice try.
    Um, the focus on genitals/surgery sickens me. Who the hell cares?

    I think the biggest thing for me regarding being covered under the label “transgender” is (as I’ve said before) I just think it’s inaccurate for me. I’m big on accuracy–given the gender part of transgender, no i don’t think it fits. something about it just rubs me wrong. i have had it explained to me how sort of binary-ish transsexual people like myself fit under transgender, but I find it hard to agree with because I genuinely think it’s a product of the cissexist world to tell transsexual men and women that their “genders” are necessarily non-conforming, or non-normative.

    Maybe I just think that’s a “smarter” argument than “ops vs non-ops”. Smarter doesn’t necessarily equal better, right.
    But I would no sooner ally myself with the HBS kooks than I would eat a rock.

  43. mpshiel Says:

    Well, my approach to this is going to be a little odd because I’ve spent two weeks thinking about disability and why exactly is it that people who SEE someone with a visable disability assume that is pretty much life long or WHO THEY ARE when in the majority they are not; but people just look and see:”disabled” - so I wondered, why is it that when people say, “I’m gay” people assume, “always gay”, the whole years of feeling of not fitting in and WANTING to please parents and just not being interested in the opposite sex is tossed away as Gay/ALWAYS GAY (people don’t say, “So, you know, back when you were heterosexual”), now the same thing with disability. Yet for some reason, with gender, there is this huge struggle for most of the population. I guess, (this is going to be the naive bit), when someone says, “By the way, I’m female and my body will be reflecting more of that in the future” people don’t go, “Okay.” But I know….they don’t.

    Now this HBS group is like so many other groups, including gay groups (like for instance gay male groups that try to say ‘drag queens aren’t actually gay’ or femme guys aren’t what ‘being gay’ is about), and intersex (which itself is fighting language DSD or intersex?), this group has decided that if we remain ourself as the true and pure and medical group, well that will be super and everyone will know WE are the ones to trust. Well, I think everyone has pointed to the logic of the slippery slope of that. I do however have a problem with a) gender theory versus medical standards and b) inclusion v. demarcation.

    This again, mostly has to do with disability, since that by default is now something I know more about. There is a group that call themselves Transabled who WANT to have a spinal column injury or amputation and say, “Hey, if those trans people can get operations on perfectly good body parts why can’t we!” First, they know very little about for lack of better agreed phrase, transexxual medical studies including standards of care, follow up studies, pre-screening, and I believe it was something like 82 options available of which surgery is only one. One Transabled person even blogs his letters where he has tried to force people who do SRS to do a spinal operation on him. What does this have to do with this debate? Well, I think that there still is a medical aspect to at least some of those who are transgender, and for those who wish for example hormones, I think there should be protocols and monitored treatment, much like anyone taking HRT. But I don’t think that medical means “Better” it is just I am worried because while I find HBS loathsome, I find the “I want it so I should have it” idea not one that I can endorse either; becuase some of this is about gender expression but then some of this is about medical practice…isn’t it?

    Anyway, the other thing I have noticed is the way people who were born with a visable disability are, in my experience, inclusive of people who gain a disability later in life. It is a “we’re all in it together” and “You’re one of us now” sort of inclusion which is nice to have at usually a fairly traumatic part of your life. What I find odd is the way this does not occur within parts of the feminists community who say that T people don’t understand what it is like in a skin within a world where others have privilage. WELL, they do NOW (if they didn’t before). I mean, I live the privilage of an abilist life, and no one has come by and told me, “Hey, you’ll NEVER be a real person with a disability because you haven’t been born or lived 20 years in an able bodied world” - And I guess what I don’t understand (obviously gender and able body v. impairment are different), is WHY is it so different around gender, and around females who hold to the view that no, person this or person that will never be female. Well, aren’t they already, weren’t they before, just not everyone could see it?

    Well that sort of went everywhere and ended nowhere - sorry. I’ll try later.

  44. Danae L. M. Says:

    “kinda like “transvestiterer” or something”
    Travestir :p

  45. Lisa Harney Says:

    Stassa, it was in the goddess discussion, and I may be misremembering the exact context.

    Jay: Yeah, it’s amazing how much trans men are ignored when convenient or propped up as examples when convenient in certain kinds of conversations.

    Oh, and Heart is trolling for something. She put up another transphobic post today, apparently. I’ll look into it in a day or two.

    Apparently, if a trans woman lets a man sit next to her on a bus, and the man makes inappropriate moves, the trans woman deserves it, because no real woman would ever let a man sit next to her on a bus.

    If men are from Mars and women are from Venus, transphobic radical feminists must be from Gor. They say things so far removed from real world experience - where every man is a rapist, where just the image of a penis is psychic rape, and where women are so downtrodden as to lack all agency.

  46. Lisa Harney Says:

    Also, mpshiel,

    I think the thing is that a lot of people are not saying “because I want it, I should have it,” but the HBS literature puts them into that category by laying down false borders so they can declare one side to be true and valid, and the other side to be bad people trying to muddy the crystal clarity of the gender binary.

    I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with muddying the gender binary, or that there’s anything wrong with wanting treatments to feminize or masculinize without going all the way - all of this stuff should happen under medical supervision - at least that which involves surgery or hormones - but I don’t think it should be categorically denied.

    Anyway, that’s a great post, and I do look forward to your more focused addition later. :)

    My next post will probably have something to do with the politics of refusing/accepting trans women as women and characterising trans men as deluded women or gender traitors.

  47. nexyjo Says:

    If men are from Mars and women are from Venus, radical feminists must be from Gor. They say things so far removed from real world experience - where every man is a rapist, where just the image of a penis is psychic rape, and where women are so downtrodden as to lack all agency.

    i just like to suggest caution in making gross generalizations about “radical feminists”. while some rad fems do say things far removed from real world experiences, some do not, and to me, seem to “get it”.

    carry on.

  48. Lisa Harney Says:

    I mean a specific group of radical feminists who like to speak at length and with great uninformed enthusiasm about trans people. While I do know some radical feminists who do seem to get it and who do not seem attached to bigoted and hateful politics, I just haven’t seen very many of them on- or off-line.

    I edited, though.

  49. Danae L. M. Says:

    Stassa - while you’re at deconstructing the probable trolls (2 out of your 3 are 100% sure, I agree, and I missed one of them - the other one fits old patterns)… I think rainsong is back as well (elaineh - new account, exact same terminology in the tfeminist blog).
    And something about ts-si is really really bothering my intuitions.

  50. Stassa Says:

    Stassa - while you’re at deconstructing the probable trolls (2 out of your 3 are 100% sure, I agree, and I missed one of them - the other one fits old patterns)…

    I hear you. I’m not dead certain about the third one, either, I admit, but it’s not just the patterns, it’s the recurring affiliation with the other creeps. And the dates seem to fit the hypothesis. To be honest, I was never on usenet, so I have a lot of digging to do. But who’s hurrying? Grab a Snickers.
    To be sure, I traced my and Susan’s collision back at Diane. At the point she joined the convo at Susan’s blog, we were at the regular cattiness level of exchange. Petty and all, but no real insults. Then Diane joined in and started calling me a “HE” and a she-male and it went south from there. Yeah, the damn bitch triggered me. I’ll so have her arse for that.
    I’m even willing to believe that it was Diane or one of the others who handed Susan my piccie, and told her “where” they found it… and suggested what she should do with it. But maybe that’s just Stockholm syndrome, or something. :0

    And something about ts-si is really really bothering my intuitions.

    You too eh? I’m leaving those for last though. It’s a huge site and I can’t afford to read it all. I have a life, or at least, I used to, before the last two weeks.
    And I’ll have to infiltrate their secret polar base group fort. That’ll take time. I’ll have to go all sneaky like.

    “kinda like “transvestiterer” or something”
    Travestir :p

    You’re thinking of Travestyr, the norse goddess of transgendered warriors. Puh-lease. Read some history, won’t you? :PP
    Hey, what’s your blog btw? I know you have an lj, but I don’t know where it is.

    Lisa: The gallae thing, I hope to be able to convince you it’s all a bob, but I need to do my research for that too. I’m at uni and they have a library- and they’re doing nothing to stop me from using it!! :) But, just so you know, as far as I’m concerned, Sister Cybellina has just painted a big, huge target on her own forehead.

    I channel shark spirits, baby. Gonna bite her toopid head right orf. Right ORF!! Do you hear me????

    AH HA HA HA H AH AH AH AH AH AH !!!!!!!!!!!!)(**&&!@!!!!!!09

    ::capers away::

  51. Lisa Harney Says:

    Well, considering Cathryn of Pam’s House Blend is the same Cathryn of that website, yeah. She’s whining about the persecution that transgender people are piling on HBS women.

  52. Trin Says:

    okay, so I need bed and my logic glands are depleted, but:

    “Their viewpoint is black and white: You’re either exactly like them, or you’re a cross-dressing pervert.”

    I never really grokked this maligning of fetishists anyway. It’s like “don’t you dare be a STRANGE PERSON” and… why not? why shouldn’t someone?

    I mean, I get that a crossdresser and a transsexual woman have different experiences, needs, and lives, but I’m not really sure why that makes the crossdresser some kind of ICKY CONTAMINANT.

  53. Nick Kiddle Says:

    Apparently, if a trans woman lets a man sit next to her on a bus, and the man makes inappropriate moves, the trans woman deserves it, because no real woman would ever let a man sit next to her on a bus.

    That made no sense to me, so I went looking for the context…and it still made no sense. Heart et al keep saying over and over that the experience of being a woman is being treated exactly like that comment describes, but because it’s a trans woman describing it, suddenly it’s misogyny? Mind you, putting make-up on in the wrong situation is also misogyny, so I guess it’s Heart-speak for “trans woman do it so I am automagically opposed”.

  54. Lisa Harney Says:

    Trin,

    The logic is that being HBS/transsexual is a legitimate medical condition, while a man who likes wearing women’s clothing has no justifiable reason to want to do this, therefore it’s deviancy or perversion. There’s also this idea that people will confuse and conflate transsexualism and transvestitism, which is supposedly what transgender activists are inflicting on the HBS/transsexual women. In other words, it’s bigoted BS - they’re denying that transphobia exists, and blaming what they do encounter on other people who fit under the trans umbrella.

    Nick, yeah - everything a trans woman does or experiences is wrong. For comparison, Heart also offered sympathy to Renegade Evolution for experiencing some seriously nasty misogyny when she was hired to strip.

    So - a cis woman who is stripping for misogynist men who hired her to do this = worthy of sympathy. A trans woman who lets a man sit next to her on the bus and finds that he’s misogynist = she deserved it, and is a misogynist who knows nothing about womanhood anyway.

    I am not saying that what Ren experienced was justifiable in the least, but I feel this example really highlights just how hypocritical Heart is.

  55. nexyjo Says:

    I mean, I get that a crossdresser and a transsexual woman have different experiences, needs, and lives, but I’m not really sure why that makes the crossdresser some kind of ICKY CONTAMINANT.

    i think labels can be misleading. for a very long time, i called myself a crossdresser. in the past 10 years or so, i’ve been calling myself a transsexual woman. while one could argue that the experience, needs, and lives are always different between individuals, and my needs may have changed over the years, but my experience and life is just that.

    i suppose i’m arguing that i don’t believe, at least on some levels, that crossdressers are so very different than transwomen. or at the very least, the two terms can overlap to some (and even to a great) extent.

    perhaps this is why i consider myself a part of the trans community, and i also consider crossdressers a part of the trans community (the now infamous “umbrella”). like so many aspects of life, i just don’t see this clear line between the two. it’s all a multi-dimensional scale.

  56. Trin Says:

    The logic is that being HBS/transsexual is a legitimate medical condition, while a man who likes wearing women’s clothing has no justifiable reason to want to do this, therefore it’s deviancy or perversion.

    Well, I can buy that transsexualism and sexual fetishism are different, but I don’t buy that that means the crossdresser has no good reason. “Why not?” is a good enough reason for crossdressing, IMO. :)

  57. Trin Says:

    i suppose i’m arguing that i don’t believe, at least on some levels, that crossdressers are so very different than transwomen. or at the very least, the two terms can overlap to some (and even to a great) extent.

    From what I’ve seen I think there is a heck of a lot of overlap as well, Nexy. I’ve always found this idea that crossdressers are “all” straight men who are happy in their gender and just like to play now and again to be naive and not match up with reality, at least in the case of the CDs I’ve known.

    The vast majority of whom, I find, do see themselves as transgendered in some way, even as they also admit that part of their dressing is about sexual desire. I’ve never been totally comfortable with “there’s THE FETISH and then there’s THE GENDER THINGY!” as a kind of absolute binary. I’m especially suspicious of the idea that finding genderfucking of whatever sort arousing means or implies not having “real” gender identity issues. (Not that anyone here has said this, but I have heard it said, and defended vehemently, and I’m sure HBSers are in this camp.)

    I just also think that some transwomen who don’t see a connection between themselves and crossdressers are also making sense when they say “Please don’t conflate me with a man in a dress.”

  58. Lisa Harney Says:

    Hey, I’m not defending, just explaining. I don’t agree with it.

    And I agree that there isn’t a sharp line between crossdressing and transition. A lot of people who say they’re happily heterosexual cis men who just like to wear women’s clothing end up transitioning. I don’t know what percentage, but it’s enough. It’s pretty common for pre-transition trans women to wear women’s clothing.

    And yes, saying “I’m not a man in a dress” is not saying anything bad about crossdressing, but rather saying “I’m a woman, not a crossdresser.”

  59. drakyn Says:

    And there are transsexuals that do drag or crossdress.
    If I ever get a chance to go to an anime con I’ve got most of a costume for a female version of a male character (for Naruto fans, the character is Rock Lee). And if I passed easily I’d be walking around in a skirt as they are quite comfy (and I’d want to be seen as a guy-in-a-skirt/dress); helfires, I’m holding onto one skirt in the hopes that eventually I’ll pass well enough to wear it again.

  60. Lisa Harney Says:

    Yes, true. I think I’ve heard about more men than women who crossdress post-transition.

    On the other hand, I’ve been accused of crossdressing in the past because I wore jeans and a t-shirt…but that was someone who’d be an HBS today if she were still alive, so I take it with a grain of salt.

  61. Trin Says:

    “Hey, I’m not defending, just explaining. I don’t agree with it.”

    Oh, I wasn’t saying you did, Lisa. :) I know you better than that.

  62. nexyjo Says:

    personally, i really haven’t changed the way i dress over the years to a significant degree. i’m still rather androgynous, wearing mostly jeans, tanks, and sandals. at work, i’ll wear slightly more feminine clothes than i did as a man, but i really never wear skirts or dresses except on special occasions.

    my issue is that “crossdresser” and “man in a dress” are meant as insults in many cases. i can’t count the number of times i’ve heard transwomen insist they are not “men in dresses” like those “other” people, and their tone and facial expressions are pretty clear in suggesting what they think of those other people.

    maybe 10 years ago when i first started pursuing transition, i spent a lot of time in a support group in which most members were self-identified crossdressers. and while i came to realize that i was looking to go fulltime at some point, and saw that as a difference between some of them and myself, others expressed envy that i “went all the way” (in their words). perhaps if they too were going through a divorce, they too would have followed suit toward transition.

    a few months ago i was talking to one of the gay men in the pink pistols group i belong too, and he wondered out loud about the “line” at which someone born a man decides to transition, or just stay a gay man (and this was in the context of people like myself who prefer men as partners). it was an interesting conversation, especially as i learned that he and several of his friends sometimes talked about the issue. i suppose there are people who totally see themselves as men (so they wouldn’t transition), and there are people who totally see themselves as women (so they would), but then there are people like me who really don’t see themselves as a particular sex, or maybe just have certain preferences. i have to imagine there are many motivations and combinations of motivations and feelings that contribute to differentiate crossdressers and trans women (and gay men for that matter), but i definitely believe we are all cut from the same cloth. except for those who take exception to that - i like to think i respect those opinions too.

    the older i get, the more i believe that a unified lgbt community makes sense.

  63. Trin Says:

    “others expressed envy that i “went all the way” (in their words). perhaps if they too were going through a divorce, they too would have followed suit toward transition.”

    yeah, I’ve seen this sort of thing from some CDs as well. Not all, but some.

    I remember a presentation on CDs at a kink group. The dominatrix giving it made it clear she thought crossdressers ARE on the transgendered spectrum, but that doesn’t by itself make her right. :)

    I remember her asking some of the CDs whether they wanted to transition or not, and one of them half-raised her hand or said something, and the domme smiled and said “…and there’s Melanie*, she’s not sure.”

    *name changed by me — but it was a woman’s name. (Oh, and I’m going to use “she” for this person, as it seems to be what she’d want)

    And everyone laughed in a friendly way. But I got the clear idea that Melanie wanted to present as a woman as often as possible, and that Melanie was at least as interested, if not more interested, in wearing women’s clothing because she felt more at home in them as/than because she got off on it. And that she went out dressed as often as possible.

    I would not be surprised if she started transitioning.

    So what does that make her: a pre-medical-transition transwoman who happened to first find the CD community and not really fit within it, or something more complicated, someone who just kept doing what made her happiest and discovered she isn’t very happy as a guy any more (which is the distinct impression I had of her, though again she’s not my best friend so I’m partially guessing)?

    I don’t know. But I do think… people are complicated, and so are some people’s genders or understandings of their genders. (Again, not saying anyone here ever denied this.)

  64. Stassa Says:

    I was thinking about what you said Trin and I wonder why a woman can’t have a fetish- for anything. Why does fetishism automatically annul a female gender identity in a male?

    I’m a big fan of Oliver Sacks and he says somewhere how his teacher Alexander Luria had a saying: “a dog can have both fleas and ticks. ” He meant that, just because a patient has condition A, doesn’t mean he can’t have condition B.

    I think it’s just too wrong to take fetishism so out of context of the general man-to-woman nature of mtfs that it becomes a diagnostic tool to exclude transsexuality. I can see a thousand pathways that would lead from a childhood were crossdressing is an expression of a female identity, or the development of one, through a puberty where erotic desires are all mixed up and fetishism emerges as a result and then on to any pre- or post- transition choices.

    To be honest, I always viewed “fetishistic transvestism” as a twisted form of an original and spontaneous womanhood, that you get only when you suppress it and try to deny it and all- and so I didn’t like it, it scared me and it creeped me out. Nowadays I understand it’s OK, really. You can make your peace with your past, accept what floats your boat and merrily sail on towards the future. You don’t have to see it as a feminising episode, you can keep your male identity fine- or, you can go the other way and embrace it as part of what it means to be an mtf transsexual. Unfortunately, in the latter case, you have to suppress it even more, which is so stupid and just creates more and more problems.

    As about “just” crossdressing, if that ever happens, a male “just” putting on a dress and being happily hetero and never turned on by it, shrug. I don’t see what’s wrong with it. Clothes are clothes. If you like to wear them- you like to wear them. You should be able to wear whatever the fuck you like and never have your manhood or womanhood questioned- but that I guess blurs the lines too much for everyone involed.

    Drakyn:

    And if I passed easily I’d be walking around in a skirt as they are quite comfy (and I’d want to be seen as a guy-in-a-skirt/dress);
    OH MY GOD!!! HE’S A GENDERPUNK!!!! :P

  65. Lisa Harney Says:

    Yeah, HBS draws a lot of its “this is what a true woman born with a male body is like” from the way the old gender clinics would exclude some from treatment (fetishistic transvestism, attraction to women, a lack of complete and utter black hatred for the penis, etc).

    Even in the 80s, a lot of it was still there. I had to lie about a few things (not many, honestly, but maybe I got off lucky) in order to get hormones…and my doctor wanted to see me in a dress to make sure I’d look okay as a woman before he’d prescribe. Seriously.

    I noticed you mentioned The Forge. I’ve been kind of put off of that ever since Ron whatsisname said that playing Vampire gives you brain damage. Am I being mean and judgemental?

  66. Stassa Says:

    I noticed you mentioned The Forge. I’ve been kind of put off of that ever since Ron whatsisname said that playing Vampire gives you brain damage. Am I being mean and judgemental?

    Norratall. The Forge is another clique, ’s all. Even worse ’cause half the regulars in there are Ron Edward’s fanboys and spend half their posting time sucking up to the guy, and treating (not really) his theories as scripture, to abide with or die. As about their hero, his games aren’t bad and he does have his points, but he’s also banking heavily on “I was there in the 70s, when D&D first appeared” and blah blah, how it all declined afterwards, oh the pain. Unfortunately, his fans haven’t nearly got the same amount of experience playing games, so they simply can’t grok any new style of play or system, even though nominally that’s what they’re all about.

    Vampire was huge when it first came out; I was there and it blew our minds, even after Call of Cthulhu. It was everything the Indie crowd is trying to do today: something completely different, funky and engrossing, with simple rules (for its time… some were stupidly complex or vague or plain didn’t work) and a complete departure from the usual heroes-hunting-Orcs setting. And Mage was simply teh magic game, everest. Mark Rein Hagen had some really good dealers, methinks.

    It’s not just the Forgers who bitch about Vampire though. I was surprised to find that, but it seems, yeah, there’s plenty of players who have some serious prejudice with it. The last party I was involved with, we broke up for that reason: one day I went “Hey, wanna try Vampire?” and they went “Vampire is Gay” then it went downhill from threre. But, we were playing munchkin-style D&D so I should have expected it…

    You know, my course is about computer games design, (it’s Computer Science (Games)), but sometimes, when I see the kind of blockhead that populates any sort of gaming forum, for computers or not, I despair so much I want to call for the good people from Software Engineering to come and take me away…

    Eh. You like to hear me rant, do you? :)

  67. Stassa Says:

    and my doctor wanted to see me in a dress to make sure I’d look okay as a woman before he’d prescribe. Seriously.

    Is that even good practice?

    I think it’s similar in the UK. I mean, I wouldn’t know how it works, but I have this friend from this support group I go and she’s been to see a psych to refer her to Charing Cross, and she says she just fudged the whole sexuality thing over, ’cause the psych assumed she must be hetero, ’cause she’s pretty fem. He didn’t even bothet to ask- just went “and you are sexually attracted to males?” and she got startled and blurted a “yuh-huh” and that was it, pass, referral.

    And, yeah, she’s cute and all, I like her, but in the group everybody’s always telling her how she’ll sail as a breeze through Charing Cross and that’s fucking unfair. I mean, the other girls are all fairly atypical women in appearance and in behaviour (it’s a support group, yes?) and, if she’s gonna find it all so easy ’cause she’s passable, that means they’re gonna have to go through hell ’cause they’re not, eh?

    I’m seeing proof of that already. One of my other friends, she tried to get a referral to Charing Cross, but her psych “forgot” to forward it and she found out only about a month later, ’cause the clinic was taking too long to contact her and she called to ask what was taking them so long. They just treat you like so much dirt, if they don’t think you can “cut” it, whatever that means to them- and it always means “fuckable”. Bunch of bleeding arseholes. They read too much Bailey methinks.

  68. Lisa Harney Says:

    Yeah, I was there for the beginning with Vampire as well. It was the game I was waiting for because - at the time - I was a huge Anne Rice fangirl. I’d been playing RPGs for about a decade by that point, too, so I was already running games like that in GURPS - not quite the same, and without quite the depth of history.

    One person I gamed with at the time was really put out by Vampire. To her, vampires were monsters you killed for xp and took their treasure. There wasn’t any point to roleplaying one, that was just outlandish and weird.

    And yeah, Ron Edwards. And yes, his fans are a bit enthusiastic about what he has to say. And Mark - I do agree he had good dealers. :)

    Anyway, on the looks thing - I don’t think it’s good practice at all, but it’s what doctors did almost exclusively in America up until the 90s, and apparently still do to a lesser extent now. I’ve seen some of the comments that doctors have written about their trans women patients (in their surgery permission letters), and they could be particularly , er, harsh and judgemental. That was where I really got the sense that it didn’t matter what a trans woman did, it was wrong. Having a “traditional” idea of womanhood? WRONG. Trying too hard! Having an “unconventional” idea of womanhood? WRONG. Not trying hard enough! No middle ground, either.

    And yes, it is completely vile that any doctors put any stock into how attractive (I hatehate “passable”) a woman is before passing them along for further treatment. Or, hell, if it is an issue, then add facial feminization surgery to covered procedures.

  69. nexyjo Says:

    To be honest, I always viewed “fetishistic transvestism” as a twisted form of an original and spontaneous womanhood, that you get only when you suppress it and try to deny it and all- and so I didn’t like it, it scared me and it creeped me out. Nowadays I understand it’s OK, really. You can make your peace with your past, accept what floats your boat and merrily sail on towards the future.

    damn, this hits so close to home. i remember reading a thread somewhere, in which one of the commenters suggested that of course young tg m2f people would tend to “crossdress” and masterbate while imagining themselves in the body of a woman (aka autogynephilia) - if one feels themselves to be female, then why wouldn’t that play out in their sexual fantasies. in fact, how could it be any other way? don’t most people who fantasize about sex, imagine they are in the body that feels right to them?

    we, as a culture, really need to chill out about sex, and just let consenting adults do what they do, without all the baggage.

  70. Trin Says:

    “remember reading a thread somewhere, in which one of the commenters suggested that of course young tg m2f people would tend to “crossdress” and masterbate while imagining themselves in the body of a woman (aka autogynephilia) - if one feels themselves to be female, then why wouldn’t that play out in their sexual fantasies. in fact, how could it be any other way?”

    Yeah, that. And well, for me — a lot of the places where I do have some discomfort with my body are most pronounced for me in sex. Does that make me an autoandrophile? :-X

    I have no idea, and I don’t really know what to make of myself other than “not fitting overarching womanhood box.” But I find the whole idea that imagining myself more masculinely is most important in sexual interactions means that I’m some sort of pitiful weirdo… sad and annoying.

    I mean, I’m not transsexual, whatever I might be, so that complicates things. The feelings are probably different in many ways. But for me, well — in my daily life, how often do I really need to think about my genitalia? Not all that often. But when I’m about to have sex, or thinking about it, the glaring lack of a Goes Into down there is a lot more noticeable than when I’m busy teaching or cooking dinner. (Though I do also get the bodily sense of something not being quite right at other times, too, and want to pack using a sock or something. Freud would love me.) So… yeah, when I masturbate, I’m more likely to be thinking I should have one or pretending I do.

    Maybe that means I’m different, or whatever I “have” is “mild” or… I dunno. But feeling wrong in my body tends to show up for me when I’m actually trying to do things with it, rather than when I’m just sitting around.

    It wouldn’t surprise, shock, or bother me to discover that for some MTF-ily vectored people, of whatever sort, not being able to experience a certain kind of sex that feels right to them (note that I’m not saying all trans women want, need, or should want vaginas or vaginal penetration) would make the whole issue of sex more important in their minds.

  71. shiva Says:

    Wow, i saw this post when there was one comment, and didn’t get back to it to comment on it until now, and there are 70 comments… so yeah, i haven’t thoroughly read all of them…

    In some ways i think this seems like a re-hash of the old “primary transsexual” vs “secondary transsexual” thing. My transwoman best friend (TWBF) uses those terms, but definitely not in any “these are better/truer transsexuals than those” kind of way - simply as value-neutral descriptors of different “types” of transsexuals. (It’s interesting that all the transpeople i know in real life fit the “primary”/”knew from early childhood” pattern, whereas the majority of those i know online are nearer the “I made a choice to do this” end of the spectrum. Not sure why that is…)

    Also seems like HBS is a synonym for “woman born transsexual”, the term originated by some transwomen in response to the Adrienne Rich/Michigan-festival-thingy “women born women” term.

    TWBF, like myself, feels really strongly that the closest ally and/or parallel for a trans* liberation movement is the disability movement, and thus i have a lot of sympathy for the “it’s physical/congenital, therefore it’s real” argument. However, i think the whole “were you born that way, were you socialised that way, or did you choose to be that way” question is a non-argument really, if you take as your starting point a pro-diversity, pro-liberty attitude that accepts people who and what they are regardless of how they became it (see my post here with reference to sexuality, but IMO the same is true for gender identity).

    TBWF also does feel that “primary” transsexuals, at least, are arguably intersex (according to an inclusive definition of intersex); she herself is in fact almost certainly more obviously intersex than those who fit the HBS categorisation, and one of her theories is that many of those who get diagnosed with “gender dysphoria” are in fact intersex people who were either not diagnosed because their genital abnormalities were not externally obvious pre-puberty, or because they were “fixed” (in the wrong direction) without their parents’ knowledge or consent at birth. But she would never regard someone who only started feeling gender dysphoria in adulthood as having any less real or valid a need to transition….

    What this really reminds me of is the whole thing in the autism community with “Asperger’s” versus “autism” as a category and “high-functioning” versus “low-functioning” autism, with language distinctions varying but many people with the “Asperger’s” diagnosis acting extremely disparagingly towards other autistics (which is the reason why, despite my diagnosis being “Asperger’s”, i prefer to describe myself as simply “autistic”). Joel Smith has a recent post on this here, and Amanda at Ballastexistenz has written excellent posts about it many times, for example here, here and here (among plenty of others - try looking in the categories “Heirarchies” and “Kinds or Groups of People” at her blog…

    So, yeah. I think this is, despite being probably (sort of) well-intentioned, nastily and unnecessarily divisive, and the need that people feel for such a label that separates them from those other trans people, or those other autistic people, or whatever, shows up all kinds of (quite possibly unconscious) prejudices that those people have, which IMO are all encouraged by a “divide and rule” establishment which is all too keen to pit minorities or sub-categories of minorities against each other. The “HBS” people, like many of the “Aspergians” i encounter at forums like Wrong Planet, as well as wanting to create hierarchies and divisions within their own group, seem to have all sorts of prejudices towards other minority groups as well. (Some threads on Wrong Planet have shown horrific transphobia, homophobia and prejudice against people with physical disabilities.)

    People need to get into their heads that diversity is not a zero-sum game…

    (As a side note, i think, as a libertarian, that all drugs should be available without prescription to whoever wants them, and probably surgery should be available pretty much on-demand as well. I’m not sure what i think about people who want to acquire physical impairments through surgery; i think, in some cases, neural map deficits might be responsible for that, and possibly amputation or severing nerves to a limb might be the best “treatment” for it. It does seem to shade oddly into fetishisation of negative social aspects of disability, tho…)

    “we, as a culture, really need to chill out about sex, and just let consenting adults do what they do, without all the baggage.”

    Abso-fucking-lutely, and about body shape/appearance too…

  72. Daisy Says:

    So, Heart dislikes vaccinations and preaches against them on her blog, but then agrees with someone who demands any “serious” transgendered individual have extensive surgery.

    Too funny.

  73. Lisa Harney Says:

    Shiva, great post!

    Most of the women I’ve talked to who would qualify as “secondary” had early life narratives very similar to mine - they knew early on, but they ran into conditions that made it difficult or impossible to go forward with transition (family complications, etc), but aside from that, they’re not much different from me. On the other hand, you have early transitioners like Julia Serano who didn’t have as strong a self-awareness as I did.

    I don’t like the primary/secondary split, not because there aren’t trans women who transition early in life and those who transition late in life, and not because there aren’t trans women who know from a fairly early age and those who gradually come to an awareness, but because to me it does imply that age of transition gives some validity when it shouldn’t matter.

    Also, your post had enough links in it that wordpress’ spam trap caught it. Fortunately, I could just dig it right out - thanks for the heads up. :)

    I have it set to flag on five or so, but maybe it could be higher.

  74. shiva Says:

    Ah, it was the links, right. Thanks, really pleased to see it back up…

    Re-reading it, to make things a little bit clearer, just because i said “fixed” (in the wrong direction), doesn’t mean I think it’s OK to “fix” intersex babies even if it’s in the “right” direction (ie the one which turns out to fit their actual gender identity) - besides the impossibility of knowing, i think any kind of surgery that is nonconsensual and not necessary to save life is completely ethically impermissible.

    Also “despute” should be “despite”, of course.

    Re primary/secondary, my friend doesn’t use them to mean transitioned early vs late in life, but those who felt gender dysphoria from as early as they could remember (like both herself, who transitioned in her 20s, and her “surrogate mother”, who transitioned in her 50s), vs those who only started feeling gender dysphoria after puberty, and as i said, for her (dunno about the rest of the “primary” trans women in her trans women’s group) that in no way indicates greater or lesser validity, just a difference that’s significant and worth noting. (She’s a scientist ;) )

    And, yeah, agreement with what Trinity said, too.

  75. Lisa Harney Says:

    Yeah, I just don’t like primary/secondary, just as I don’t like “post/non/pre-op” because these are used to establish hierarchies and “I’m better/more real than you” stuff. It’s my own dislike, and I’m not asking you to change your language, just giving my own opinion.

  76. Stassa Says:

    No, Shiva, sorry but that’s total crap. “My Secret Intersex” is a myth. You can’t be intersex and not know it “because the doctors fixed you secretely at birth”. Intersex people who get surgeries know it, because they have to go back in the operating room multiple times while they grow up and they have to take hormones at puberty. The ones who don’t get surgeris, usually have other health problems that have to be dealt with, throughout their lives so they need to be told allright. That and “fixed” genitals look like shit.

    But, don’t take it from me, take it from them as knows:

    Sometimes people tell us that they have fairly typical genitals, but they think that they must have been born intersex and subjected to a sex change as an infant. Surgeons, even today, cannot create “normal” looking genitals, and surgery was much poorer decades ago. Thus, if you have genitals that look like most women (or men), then you were surely born with these genitals.

    As about the gender dysphoria experienced by intersex people, I wish everytime someone said that, a small pixie popped up and banged them on the head with a fifty-pound frying pan. Intersex people generally don’t suffer any gender dysphoria, or, if they do, it’s usually because they were assigned in the wrong gender, but in this case they know it for the reasons outlined above.

    Your friend, you say she’s “almost certainly more obviously intersex than those who fit the HBS categorisation” I take it you mean she’s obviously undervirilised, as in, she never quite hit puberty, never grew any facial hair, her voice didn’t “break”, her body hair remained sparse and fine, she has long arms and legs, a narrow rib cage and a wide pelvis, she spontaneously grew boobs and so on and so forth- she may have a Partial A